leongut
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Opening volleys

Fri 10 Jun 2022, 07:58

Quick question: Do I understand it right, that an adversary with a might of >1 still only gets one opening volley (i.e. as many as the player-heroes)?
 
Dunheved
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Re: Opening volleys

Sat 11 Jun 2022, 00:24

An interesting question.
Page 94 Opening Volleys does state that "under most circumstances, all combatants are entitled to at least one volley.."
Page 143 Might & Endurance includes " Might indicates... the number of attacks it can take during a round of combat."

A. Easy therefore to read it both ways. Use " at LEAST one volley" and " Might = number of attacks" to decide that a Might > 1 Foe can shoot twice as often per turn in an Opening Volley.

B. Or use "under most circumstances ...... one volley" to say that only one volley is right per turn. And that Opening Volleys are not a "normal" attack.

In fact, in the Core book, there appear to be NO adversaries who have a Might rating above 1, who can use a missile capability. Big orcs have a BROAD headed spear, which inflicts 5 damage by default - the same as a Great Spear. If such a heavy spear can cause 5 damage, then it is too big to be thrown effectively.
Which sort of makes this issue a non-starter (until somebody designs such an adversary, and they will have to decide at the moment of creation).
 
leongut
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Re: Opening volleys

Mon 13 Jun 2022, 10:31

Thanks for the discussion! Yes, both interpretations are possible, considered that an opening volley is in fact a combat round by definition. This could perhaps be argued, and for now I'll just judge it is not a combat round as such - which leads to the same result for the present, since there is so far no adversary with might >1 that can make a ranged attack anyway.
 
baldrick0712
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Re: Opening volleys

Sun 10 Jul 2022, 04:06

Opening Volleys is NOT a combat round. The combat sequence is 1) Opening Volleys, 2) Close Quarters Rounds. The number of attacks each side gets during Opening Volleys is based purely on the terrain and each party's awareness of the enemy (surprised or not surprised).
 
Dunheved
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Re: Opening volleys

Sun 10 Jul 2022, 09:54

Remembering that there is NO missile capable adversary with Might > 1 available yet, except by personal design, how would the answer be written if such an adversary were shooting (in Rearward) during regular Rounds of Combat?
It seems plain to me that the Big Fella gets two shots in per Round of Combat because that's how to read RAW.
And if a PC were able to be shooting back, (in Rearward, screened by the right number of close combat fighters naturally) we have the situation that the Big Fella shoots twice as often / twice as fast as the PC.

It is only a simple piece of logic to track this back to Opening Volleys: if the PC has time for one shot, the Big Fella has time for two shots.
(As an aside: I would judge Opening Volleys to be a type of Ranged Combat, it uses the same mechanism, i.e. weapon skills TN modified by Parry, and inflicts damage. It occurs in the Combat Sequence. To me, it is its own type of Combat Round; and under some circumstances the book implies more than one Round of Opening Volleys may be fired. )
 
Dunheved
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Re: Opening volleys

Sun 10 Jul 2022, 10:13

Extra: I think that this question is also strongly influenced by how one sees the roll of the dice in a round of combat and what that represents, including how it is narrated.

Model 1. Each dice roll is exactly one actual attack/action within a brief interval of time (You choose how long that is, 5 to 30 seconds say). It includes enough time to think where to strike, to aim, and to make that one move.

Model 2. The dice roll represents the effect of a flurry of moves and decisions and gives the net effect of all those moves and actions. This might include several quick lunges and dodging around, while scoring two or three glancing glows in between. Maybe one of those glancing blows actually hits a spot to trigger the damage. (Probably a longer period of time, say 20 to 50 seconds?)


If model 1 is your take on things, then you are likely to read these arguments in a different one way to model 2.

But this is a different issue to the OP, though it does bear on the debate to my mind.
 
baldrick0712
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Re: Opening volleys

Sun 10 Jul 2022, 11:28

Regarding time, on p98 of the Core Rules it says, "...consider a round to last a maximum of 30 seconds". Even allowing for shorter timescale actions, I would consider a close quarters round to involve several lunges and swings, and maybe the odd well-placed kick, which collectively are treated as a single attack. It could also be two or three arrows fired, especially when considering that ranged weapon ammunition isn't tracked. Seeing as Endurance is recovered quite easily when not Wounded, an attack that hits but doesn't cause a Wound most likely just staggers the adversary or causes some minor bruising or cuts, wearing them down. To allow for "death of Boromir" type demises of characters I would say that a Piercing Blow could actually involve several stabbing or puncturing injuries that collectively count as a Wound.
 
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Leuwart
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Re: Opening volleys

Mon 11 Jul 2022, 23:10

Once fighting at close quarters is initiated, the gameplay ist broken down into a cycle of rounds[...]
CRB 94

The Opening Volleys aren't rounds and they don't follow the identical logic as the combat rounds (for example the parry bonus of shields is doubled when aware). So neither can an adversary with Might > 1 shoot more arrows nor can a PC decide to be knocked back.

While the close combat is more tactical (selecting stance and actions that might be best in this situation), during the Opening Volleys you only can shoot and approach. So the players can't react to the threat of an adversary with Might > 1. During close combat they can.

And I think it fits the narrative of such a fight pretty good: the Opening Volleys are a coordinated effort of each side to let a rain of arrows go down on the enemy. You are pressing foward and shoot until you have reached your enemy. Then the real fight breaks out (and the Rounds begin).
 
Dunheved
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Re: Opening volleys

Thu 14 Jul 2022, 11:43

Once fighting at close quarters is initiated, the gameplay ist broken down into a cycle of rounds[...]
CRB 94

........ While the close combat is more tactical (selecting stance and actions that might be best in this situation), during the Opening Volleys you only can shoot and approach. So the players can't react to the threat of an adversary with Might > 1. During close combat they can.

And I think it fits the narrative of such a fight pretty good: the Opening Volleys are a coordinated effort of each side to let a rain of arrows go down on the enemy. You are pressing foward and shoot until you have reached your enemy. Then the real fight breaks out (and the Rounds begin).
The rules on Might are on page 143. This is specific in stating that a Mighty Adversary attacks 2 (or more) times per round in Combat.

It is both acceptable and reasonable from RAW that during Combat both sides may have archers firing from Rearward. Both sides may be firing at the other side's archers naturally.

Consider a hypothetical Archer-Troll with Might 2. This adversary fires twice per round of combat, while the player-heroes get one shot per round of combat.

Logically this is an exact match for both sides shooting in the Opening Volley. In fact the only thing that is different is that the fighters who are running towards each other don't get a round of Close Combat.

This is why it is perfectly reasonable to have both interpretations . RAW does not DEFINE an answer to the OP, so we should come to our own decisions. Both are possible.

Edit: As a player, I would of course follow what the LM had decided on this issue. But, if I were the LM I need to have designed my own Archer-Troll in advance, and made up my mind about its firing rate. (My Archer-Troll would shoot twice in the Opening Volley, just to get the reaction from the players! )
 
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Leuwart
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Re: Opening volleys

Fri 15 Jul 2022, 00:21

The Might 2 Archer Troll firing two arrows per volley may feel similar to him shooting twice per round in rearward stance. But it isn't the same:
- the troll must have a bunch of lackeys to be able to enter rearward stance. If there are not more enemies than heroes the PH can engage him and force him to fight in close combat. But even a single archer troll can shoot an opening volley.
- the PH can enter forward or defensive stance to hit him more likely or reduce the chances of being shot. During the opening volleys there are no stance at all.
- PH have a primary and a secondary action per round. They have tactical options for a deadly foe. During the opening volleys they don't have any options apart from shooting.
- PH can throw away shield or helm to reduce load or take a knockback to reduce damage. Not during the opening volleys.
- the troll stills has Might 2 when forced into melee combat. Any melee only-enemy can use Might as soon as close combat has begun. Said troll would be using it all the time.

So it might feel similar to two archers shooting from rearward at each other but it is not. Entering rearward stance is a choice.

But yes we can't decide what was meant. We have to decide what we like the most for our game. And I think shooting more arrows per volley is a bit unbalanced and unfair. So no, as long as it isn't officially stated that Might also works this war, my NPCs can't do that.

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