Forum

I hope that in the upcoming twilight 2000 game, small arms are handle akin to how they were handled in WoD Armory. Meaning that most small arms are kinda same’ish. Take service pistols in 9mm, there isn’t that mush difference between a Beretta 92fs and a Sig p226, or 9mm Glocks, 9mm HK ups and so on. So what I would like to see is a single stat block for “9mm service pistols” and that a list of example of 9mm service pistols. Since capacity seems important in the new game, sure included that as well, but stat wise, they should just be the same. And why not just add in the other service pistol calibers? Real world studies show very little difference in the capability of 9mm, 45 acp , 10mm etc. Just give a single stat block for all service pistol and a list of examples.
The same kinda goes for assault rifles, the difference between 5.56x45 and 5.45x39 isn’t that big, just give them the same stats, and again just a single stat block with examples. Famas, Aug or SA80, all kinda the same, so one stat block of “Bull Pop assault rifles” and a list of examples. In that way the game could pack in a huge selection of small arms and it would be really easy to add in more yourself, you just have to know the type and capacity of the weapon you would like to add in.
And that could leave room for some of the more interesting small arms like HK G11 (I really hope that will be included), HK VP70 and so on.

But by that definition, the VP70 would be just another “9mm service pistol”, wouldn’t it?

Have you looked around in the ongoing discussions in this sub forum? You might find it interesting to join in on some of them, as you touch upon subjects that have been subject of some heated discussions these past weeks!

Well, yes, VP70 is just a 9mm pistol, but the burst setting does set it a part. But, yeah.

No sure which sub forum you are talking about.

Well, yes, VP70 is just a 9mm pistol, but the burst setting does set it a part. But, yeah.

No sure which sub forum you are talking about.

.
Okay, you refer specifically to the VP70M with its shoulder stock. I suppose you would then have an "umbrella stat" for 3-round burst machine pistols, where the VP70M would go together with the Beretta 93R; perhaps all machine pistols — including Glock 18, etc?

But for my own part, I'd really prefer to see more granularity than this. Although the VP70M and Beretta 93R nominally both are 9mm machine pistols that can fire 3-round bursts, they are also like night and day.

In another example, I wouldn't want to cram all 5.56x45mm assault rifles into a single stat. Granted that looking statistically at real-world engagements, most firefights occur at relatively short ranges; up to a couple of hundred meters. But outside of the statistical norm (and in TTRPG's, we know PC's really love to push the envelope), if you need to engage a target at 600m, it makes a world of difference if you have an XM177 or an M16A2, both in terms of hit probability an effect on target — and yet, both are just different versions of the M16.

About sub forums — I'm referring to this; the specific "Twilight: 2000" sub forum.

Gaming-wise generic weapon categories would work. SMG, Assault rifle, LMG, MMG.... The dice roll for hits and damage gives enough randomness to mask over minor differences in the hardware.

But...

having detailed info adds flavour to the game. A military-style game is expected to have detailed info on weapons. In V1 there was a simplification on ammo - 1 "shot" was 3 actual rounds. Probably the most critizised part of V1.

I'm convinced the absolute majority of potential customers of T2K wants detailed info on weapons and not abstractions.

In my view, it's all about that flavour. Providing that flavour is the whole point of having a game.

In this kind of setting, if it were the real world, it would make a real difference if I tried to take the 600m shot with an XM177 or an M16A2. And so, I need the game mechanics to show me that difference; to make it matter if I have one or the other.

Because it it doesn't — why have any stats at all? Why bother with the game mechanics there in the first place?
Why not just sit around and improv group-story tell freely, and dispense with all the character generation and dice-rolling bits altogether, if they don't help us distinguish which choices matter and which don't?

I wouldn’t mind a difference between 16” barrel 5.56 assault rifle and a 10” barrel 5.56 assault rifle, but I wouldn’t like to see rows upon rows of the same 16” 5.56 rifles. Here I would much rather see an entry for “5.56 assault rifles” and examples of that (M16, HK 41 etc) and an entry for “Carbine 5.56 ” with M4, XM177 and so on as example. I wouldn’t mind to to some of guns in a category stand out and have some kind of a advance, like the HK mp5 should be better then just the generic “Large 9mm SMG”

World of Darkness: Armory, did something like that. In stead of having row upon row of “Wonder nines”, there was a single entry for “9mm service pistols” and a list of examples. I don’t have my copy right now, but I think they also highlighted some examples, like the mp5.

I agree with both sides (and yes, we're having this discussion in a few other places -- go figure, Twilight draws in a crowd that has strong opinions about blasters!)

On the one hand, reality is that there's not actually a whole lot of difference between most weapons of similar type.

On the other hand, those distinctions add playability, nuance, and personality.

So I am on the side of meaningful but small distinctions that try to capture that personality, without diving deep down a rabbit hole of flawed statistical accuracy. So I hope there's enough nuance to reflect the advantages of smaller, compact weapons in some conditions, the advantages of longer, more unwieldy weapons in others, and the reasons why you need to choose between them.

I particularly hope there's some sort of familiarity/expertise system that grants you advantages for weapon types you have used extensively. This achieves both goals of reflecting reality AND giving some personality and distinctions between characters.

World of Darkness: Armory, did something like that. In stead of having row upon row of “Wonder nines”, there was a single entry for “9mm service pistols” and a list of examples. I don’t have my copy right now, but I think they also highlighted some examples, like the mp5.

WoD Armory was a good book. It used lists that had “Generic 9mm Luger” or “Generic .45ACP” with stats/examples and then had “Notable” versions like the Beretta Model 92 or HK SOCOM Mk23 with slightly tweaked stats if they warranted it. Usually the stats that changed were range bands or mag capacity for “baby Glocks” compared to regular Glock 17s and so on. Sometimes it was strength requirements, cost, etc. It also included a table of about 30 calibers with recommended damage and other traits, like armor piercing rating, and had write ups to explain the system differences of using say FMJ vs HP in a weapon.

It really is a great compromise method that makes most folks happy. People who just want the basics stick to the generic stats and people who want specifics can pick from larger lists or use the lists to see how the designers tweaked stats in case they want to include a gun they favor that isn’t statted up. Plus the book had quite a bit of excellent exposition on ancillary weapons topics like shooting stances or what a bullet really does to a body compared to cinema. It was a hefty tome at like 200 pages but covered everything from melee, to firearms, to explosives.

WoD Armory was a good book. It used lists that had “Generic 9mm Luger” or “Generic .45ACP” with stats/examples and then had “Notable” versions like the Beretta Model 92 or HK SOCOM Mk23 with slightly tweaked stats if they warranted it. Usually the stats that changed were range bands or mag capacity for “baby Glocks” compared to regular Glock 17s and so on. Sometimes it was strength requirements, cost, etc. It also included a table of about 30 calibers with recommended damage and other traits, like armor piercing rating, and had write ups to explain the system differences of using say FMJ vs HP in a weapon.

.
That is indeed a very sensible system! As Omnipus rightly notes: there is not a lot of difference between most weapons of similar type — far from all, however; and a good system needs to reflect this, too.

If the new T2k can strike a balance similar to the WoD Armoury's, it will be a job well done.