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This has been discussed on another thread (here), but there is some general feeling that the weapons listed with the "Parrying" trait don't feel quite right.

I also wanted to discuss another way to address Parrying, by looking at how it is done in WFRP.  In that game, as long as you have a weapon in your hand, you can attempt to parry.  Only a few weapons then have a "Defensive" trait (shields, main gauche and quarterstaff) which allow them to gain a bonus to their parry.

I really like this, because it simplifies the Parrying rules and puts more of a focus on those weapons which work particularly well in defensive melee fighting, while still letting you parry with any weapon.  Naturally, the list of weapons with the "Defensive" trait could be expanded here, but the concept can easily be used (in fact it's how I'll be handling it in my own hack, which is largely influenced by WFRP).

But in WFRP you could only Parry and Dodge once.
And it cost you an Half-Action except you have - as you mentioned - another weapon or shield in your off-hand. Is that your suggestion? That you get a free Parry when you have equipped a weapon or shield off-hand?
And that a weapon with a Parry trait gives you a bonus?
I have played WFRP and used the weapon off-hand to my advantage but I find it not so good as it will drive most of the players to use two weapons or a shield and not a 2h-weapon even it seems more appropriate. But the free Parry is sooo good.
But perhaps I have misunderstood you completely

I agree that something has to be done and if its not official it will be house-ruled.

personally I can take that only some weapons can be used to for parrying. The problem is that dodging is kind of broken. This will force everyone with a non-parrying weapon to have a shield. 

A classic knife-fight in a dark ally require that both of the combatants have the Steady Feet talent or the combat will be decided by initiative.
For example: A and B both have knives. A attacks B. Be dodges (he can't parry because knife is not a parrying weapon), but since he doesn't have Steady Feet Level 2, he end up prone. B has one action left, he can stand up and then end turn but if he does that A can simply attack again and if B dodges that will make him prone again. Next turn. B could feint (no skill required, yet) of course and swap initiative. He will still be prone but at least he has better initiative. So if he do that, on the next turn B stands up and then attacks. A can of course dodge this and if he do, he will end up prone. He can of course as his second action, stand up or feint ...

This feels more like comedy than an epic knife-fight between two rouges in a dark ally.

To keep things simple. You could allow anyone to dodge and stay standing up by instead have a penalty to the dodge (for example -2). You can still do the throw yourself to the ground dodge if you like and then suffer no penalty. The same penalty could be used to parrying weapons. Let people parry with any weapon, but if the weapon doesn't have the Parrying trait, then you have a -2 penalty. I have not tested this, but at least on paper it would give those with the right talents and/or weapons a bonus for that but also give the two rogues for some epic knife-fighting in that dark ally. The reason I have a penalty in my suggestion and not a bonus to parrying weapon is to have the same principle for all defenses and also not to make defensive actions better than they already are.

We have had two test sessions so far. We have mostly done combats (to test out the system) and both me and my players noticed that, dodge is really not a valid defence action (unless you have taken the Steady Feet talent to level 2) it is more of a panic action while you are crying for your friends to come and help you. One example from my sessions is that I threw in some orcs (using the standard stats from the bestiary) and I noticed that they where armed with scimitars and nothing else. This means that they can't defend themselves other than dodge and ... well, if you start doing that you have basically already lost the fight. In the second session I wanted to test the advanced combat system so I had to add shield to the orcs, so they could defend themselves (otherwise the combat would be over almost before it started)

Edit:
Idea 1: Simply remove the fact that you are prone when you dodge and change Steady Feet Level 2 to something else. For example that you can enter rough combat zones without a Move skill check.
Idea 2: Give dodging characters a choice, -2 to dodge if they want to stand up or no penalty and they are prone. Here the talent doesn't need to change.
Idea 3: Allow any weapon to be used for parrying. Give weapons without parrying trait a -2 penalty if using them for parrying. Since I don't like to make parrying better than it already is, a penalty is better than to give weapons with the parrying trait more bonus.

Personally the easiest change would be idea 1. This method is very simple and since I am ok that you can't use all weapons for parrying, I would go for this since then all characters have a valid defense option, dodge (two if they have a parrying weapon or a shield). Sure it can be combined with idea 3.

Nice insight into combat, Fenhorn, thank you.
Dodge is really ineffective and Parry only with weapons that have the Parry trait isn’t enough. The solution with -2 for all characters for Dodge and Parry is very good.

I agree that something has to be done and if its not official it will be house-ruled.

personally I can take that only some weapons can be used to for parrying. The problem is that dodging is kind of broken. This will force everyone with a non-parrying weapon to have a shield. 

A classic knife-fight in a dark ally require that both of the combatants have the Steady Feet talent or the combat will be decided by initiative.
For example: A and B both have knives. A attacks B. Be dodges (he can't parry because knife is not a parrying weapon), but since he doesn't have Steady Feet Level 2, he end up prone. B has one action left, he can stand up and then end turn but if he does that A can simply attack again and if B dodges that will make him prone again. Next turn. B could feint (no skill required, yet) of course and swap initiative. He will still be prone but at least he has better initiative. So if he do that, on the next turn B stands up and then attacks. A can of course dodge this and if he do, he will end up prone. He can of course as his second action, stand up or feint ...

This feels more like comedy than an epic knife-fight between two rouges in a dark ally.

To keep things simple. You could allow anyone to dodge and stay standing up by instead have a penalty to the dodge (for example -2). You can still do the throw yourself to the ground dodge if you like and then suffer no penalty. The same penalty could be used to parrying weapons. Let people parry with any weapon, but if the weapon doesn't have the Parrying trait, then you have a -2 penalty. I have not tested this, but at least on paper it would give those with the right talents and/or weapons a bonus for that but also give the two rogues for some epic knife-fighting in that dark ally. The reason I have a penalty in my suggestion and not a bonus to parrying weapon is to have the same principle for all defenses and also not to make defensive actions better than they already are.

We have had two test sessions so far. We have mostly done combats (to test out the system) and both me and my players noticed that, dodge is really not a valid defence action (unless you have taken the Steady Feet talent to level 2) it is more of a panic action while you are crying for your friends to come and help you. One example from my sessions is that I threw in some orcs (using the standard stats from the bestiary) and I noticed that they where armed with scimitars and nothing else. This means that they can't defend themselves other than dodge and ... well, if you start doing that you have basically already lost the fight. In the second session I wanted to test the advanced combat system so I had to add shield to the orcs, so they could defend themselves (otherwise the combat would be over almost before it started)

Edit:
Idea 1: Simply remove the fact that you are prone when you dodge and change Steady Feet Level 2 to something else. For example that you can enter rough combat zones without a Move skill check.
Idea 2: Give dodging characters a choice, -2 to dodge if they want to stand up or no penalty and they are prone. Here the talent doesn't need to change.
Idea 3: Allow any weapon to be used for parrying. Give weapons without parrying trait a -2 penalty if using them for parrying. Since I don't like to make parrying better than it already is, a penalty is better than to give weapons with the parrying trait more bonus.

Personally the easiest change would be idea 1. This method is very simple and since I am ok that you can't use all weapons for parrying, I would go for this since then all characters have a valid defense option, dodge (two if they have a parrying weapon or a shield). Sure it can be combined with idea 3.

I had originally suggested the -2 penalty to Dodge, and a variation of it is already in my own hack. Your suggestion to follow suit with Parry is brilliant. That fixes it for me. Obviously talents need a little tweaking, but that's not a problem for me.

Now back to the debate about which weapons should have that Parrying trait!

Regardless of realism, for balance in game, I believe it should only be lighter weapons, staffs and shields.

I actually was a bit surprised that they didn't have a parrying knife in the mix (I have suggested that to them) and also that you can't parry with the staff. Scimitar should be a parrying weapon. It is just as much of a "fencing" weapon than the other swords. Two-handed sword, I don't know. My knowledge about two-handed swords and melee fighting is not as good as I would have hoped.

Something like a left-hand dagger aka main gauche would be nice. And the quarterstaff need to have Parry. As I‘m no weapon aficionado can’t say more about it.

I actually was a bit surprised that they didn't have a parrying knife in the mix (I have suggested that to them) and also that you can't parry with the staff. Scimitar should be a parrying weapon. It is just as much of a "fencing" weapon than the other swords. Two-handed sword, I don't know. My knowledge about two-handed swords and melee fighting is not as good as I would have hoped.

Yeah, I'd agree with that - main gauche / sword-breaker / parrying dagger would be great to see added.

I also find 1H maces and warhammers an odd choice.  Certainly they can be used to parry, but I wouldn't think they are especially notable for that ability.  I mean, they don't have a guard, so I can easily imagine fingers being sliced off if using one against a sword.

A classic knife-fight in a dark ally require that both of the combatants have the Steady Feet talent or the combat will be decided by initiative.
For example: A and B both have knives. A attacks B. Be dodges (he can't parry because knife is not a parrying weapon), but since he doesn't have Steady Feet Level 2, he end up prone. B has one action left, he can stand up and then end turn but if he does that A can simply attack again and if B dodges that will make him prone again. Next turn. B could feint (no skill required, yet) of course and swap initiative. He will still be prone but at least he has better initiative. So if he do that, on the next turn B stands up and then attacks. A can of course dodge this and if he do, he will end up prone. He can of course as his second action, stand up or feint ...

Isn't the problem more that it takes an action to stand up? I could see a 2 vs 1 situation where one character just pushes the enemy every turn. The poor loner will have to stand up each turn and will never be able to attack unless he forgoes defense.

Maybe that's by design, in which case it's really going to suck to be outnumbered. But now it seems to me that it would solve a lot of problems if standing up didn't take an action. It could instead give you a penalty for your next action, or expose you to an attack of opportunity.

Lack of a parrying dagger may be because its a later period weapon. If you *must* have it, I'd either add Parrying to the dagger, or look at a rule/trait for fighting with a light melee weapon in your off hand to defend with as a shield or something.

I agree that mace, morningstar and warhammer are weird choices to have Parry and that staff absolutely should. Scimitars should probably lose Hook (they're not really used for that and aren't *that* curved) and gain Parry.

Knives and daggers I'm actually fine with not having Parry (unless you wanted to add the stuff about off hand light weapon defense). They're small weapons that aren't really that effective without getting the drop on someone and going into a fight with only a knife/dagger against anyone with a larger weapon is dumb.

Having a trait for axes, hammers/club, and the halberd that more easily damages armor would potentially be a good balance for not having Parry. Its been a bit since I've looked over the sample chapters to see if there's something that covers this already.