Hi,
I was checking the damage values for some of the equipment in the Evolved rules, which is the rulebook I own, and found something that made me raise my eyebrows.
How should I interpret the fact that a supposedly powerful weapon such as the grenade launcher inflicts Damage 2, and DYI improvised weapons such as the Bolt Gun and the Cutting Torch inflict Damage 3?
I understand the grenade launcher has an area effect, and that the primitive weapons have a -1 penalty to handling, but still, it feels like those damage values are not plausible nor grounded on real life counterparts. What's the reasoning behind this?
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Fenhorn
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Re: Weapon damage...not too coherent?
There are YT videos where people are shooting with a real GL and lets say that the effect isn't exactly cinematic.
But this is a very cinematic game.
A GL has explosion damage which can be very good sometimes. The GL has +1 and then a potential another +2 if firing into a contained space. That is +3, a nice chance of extra damage done or just to hit in the first place, at least compared to a bolt gun that has -1. Add to this that a bolt gun is a single-shot weapon, which means that it needs to be reloaded before each fire. This is a quick action but that slows you down considerably compared to weapons with Ammo 1-5. A GL has Ammo 1 which isn't the best of course but you should be able to get a few shots before you need to reload (and you use conserving ammo to save ammo).
Explosions can be a bit swingy in effect but they can if used right, be very powerful. If a GL would have had higher damage, then it would have been devastating, remember that this is a game where the average Joe has an health of three.
But this is a very cinematic game.
A GL has explosion damage which can be very good sometimes. The GL has +1 and then a potential another +2 if firing into a contained space. That is +3, a nice chance of extra damage done or just to hit in the first place, at least compared to a bolt gun that has -1. Add to this that a bolt gun is a single-shot weapon, which means that it needs to be reloaded before each fire. This is a quick action but that slows you down considerably compared to weapons with Ammo 1-5. A GL has Ammo 1 which isn't the best of course but you should be able to get a few shots before you need to reload (and you use conserving ammo to save ammo).
Explosions can be a bit swingy in effect but they can if used right, be very powerful. If a GL would have had higher damage, then it would have been devastating, remember that this is a game where the average Joe has an health of three.
"Thanks for noticing' me." - Eeyore
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- JavierM-UK
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Re: Weapon damage...not too coherent?
yeah, I see what you mean, and I understand the intent of keeping some sort of game balance, but it still feels like a grenade launcher should be more powerful than a service pistol, which isn't the case right now.
Plus, I'm not sure a grenade launcher being too deadly...is a bad thing? Like, one would kind of expect that, right? It's in the hands of the GM to handle those powerful weapons accordingly. Like, you don't make the Alien less deadly to give the players a fighting chance, because that would break the idea of the Alien being a living nightmare, which you want to preserve.
Also, the Harpoon gun does damage 1, but both the bolt gun and the Cutting Torch do damage 3. That does not feel consistent...at all. It feels like those two items should do damage 1 as well. It might be ruled they do Damage 3 against structures and 1 against organic opponents or something similar, and that would keep some sort of external logic and internal coherence with the game.
Just my 2 cents. Really interested in your opinion, though.
Plus, I'm not sure a grenade launcher being too deadly...is a bad thing? Like, one would kind of expect that, right? It's in the hands of the GM to handle those powerful weapons accordingly. Like, you don't make the Alien less deadly to give the players a fighting chance, because that would break the idea of the Alien being a living nightmare, which you want to preserve.
Also, the Harpoon gun does damage 1, but both the bolt gun and the Cutting Torch do damage 3. That does not feel consistent...at all. It feels like those two items should do damage 1 as well. It might be ruled they do Damage 3 against structures and 1 against organic opponents or something similar, and that would keep some sort of external logic and internal coherence with the game.
Just my 2 cents. Really interested in your opinion, though.
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_ArthurDallas_
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Re: Weapon damage...not too coherent?
...yeah, I see what you mean, and I understand the intent of keeping some sort of game balance, but it still feels like a grenade launcher should be more powerful than a service pistol, which isn't the case right now.
Plus, I'm not sure a grenade launcher being too deadly...is a bad thing? Like, one would kind of expect that, right? It's in the hands of the GM to handle those powerful weapons accordingly. Like, you don't make the Alien less deadly to give the players a fighting chance, because that would break the idea of the Alien being a living nightmare, which you want to preserve.
Also, the Harpoon gun does damage 1, but both the bolt gun and the Cutting Torch do damage 3. That does not feel consistent...at all. It feels like those two items should do damage 1 as well. It might be ruled they do Damage 3 against structures and 1 against organic opponents or something similar, and that would keep some sort of external logic and internal coherence with the game.
Just my 2 cents. Really interested in your opinion, though.
Hi JavierM-UK, if you prefer, you can change the damage on your game table and establish house rules. Anything is possible when you're a Game Mother.
Regarding explosions and weapons with explosions, I think it takes into account that shrapnel can fly in all directions and characters are often moving. It makes sense to consider that.
As for the difference between the harpoon, cutting torch, and bolt gun, honestly, I've never really thought about it in six years. I just take it as it is, so I don't overthink it. The game is deadly enough as it is, and characters don't last long near the xenomorphs. Nothing's stopping you from making house rules if you want to change things.
Arthur.
Moderator (Free League Alien RPG Forums)
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- JavierM-UK
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Re: Weapon damage...not too coherent?
Of course Arthur. Sure, I can house rule it. I will probably do so.
I was just wondering what was the designers' reason to do that. It seems too specific, specially regarding the Bolt Gun and the Cutting torch to be random, so I was wondering what was the reasoning behind it.
As a game designer, if you go with "a cutting torch does more damage than rifle or a explosion", surely you must have a reason for that....IMHO.
I was just wondering what was the designers' reason to do that. It seems too specific, specially regarding the Bolt Gun and the Cutting torch to be random, so I was wondering what was the reasoning behind it.
As a game designer, if you go with "a cutting torch does more damage than rifle or a explosion", surely you must have a reason for that....IMHO.
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- Jeff Wilder
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Re: Weapon damage...not too coherent?
A bolt gun shoots massively large "ammo" with enough force to drive it into steel.
A harpoon gun, BTW, doesn't actually fire a penetrating projectile. It fires a grapple: it'll hurt if it hits someone, but it doesn't spear them or anything.
ALIEN has never been one of those games I police for realism, but I think this particular comparison does fine passing the realism test.
A harpoon gun, BTW, doesn't actually fire a penetrating projectile. It fires a grapple: it'll hurt if it hits someone, but it doesn't spear them or anything.
ALIEN has never been one of those games I police for realism, but I think this particular comparison does fine passing the realism test.
Jeff Wilder | San Francisco Bay Area
"And if you bore me, you lose your soul to me." | Belly
"And if you bore me, you lose your soul to me." | Belly
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- JavierM-UK
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Re: Weapon damage...not too coherent?
Nice, that's good info. This is the kind of reasoning I'm after. It helps me to understand things.
What about our friend the Cutting torch, doing more damage than an Incinerator unit?
What about our friend the Cutting torch, doing more damage than an Incinerator unit?
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- Jeff Wilder
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Re: Weapon damage...not too coherent?
What about our friend the Cutting torch, doing more damage than an Incinerator unit?
I feel like I'm sorta the last person qualified to opine about this stuff.
I haven't even discharged a firearm since the .22 rifles at summer camp 41 (*cough*Jesus*cough*) years ago.But I would say that a cutting torch is focused, directed, at near-plasma heat. An incinerator is just fire (not napalm or anything), and while I don't want to face one, I think a lot of its scariness is its reach, its sweep, and its potential to set shit on fire.
Jeff Wilder | San Francisco Bay Area
"And if you bore me, you lose your soul to me." | Belly
"And if you bore me, you lose your soul to me." | Belly
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- tliciousx
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Re: Weapon damage...not too coherent?
yeah, I see what you mean, and I understand the intent of keeping some sort of game balance, but it still feels like a grenade launcher should be more powerful than a service pistol, which isn't the case right now.
Plus, I'm not sure a grenade launcher being too deadly...is a bad thing? Like, one would kind of expect that, right? It's in the hands of the GM to handle those powerful weapons accordingly. Like, you don't make the Alien less deadly to give the players a fighting chance, because that would break the idea of the Alien being a living nightmare, which you want to preserve.
Also, the Harpoon gun does damage 1, but both the bolt gun and the Cutting Torch do damage 3. That does not feel consistent...at all. It feels like those two items should do damage 1 as well. It might be ruled they do Damage 3 against structures and 1 against organic opponents or something similar, and that would keep some sort of external logic and internal coherence with the game.
I despise the Cutting Torch as written as a weapon. I believe my current solution is that it is Attack -2 DMG 3 with Armor Piercing requiring a stunt. This makes it a fairly clumsy weapon in a fistfight, but if you can pin a target before applying its damage, it can do REALLY nasty damage. It can only be used at Engaged Range.
The Bolt Gun I currently keep at an Attack +0 DMG 3 at Engaged (using CLOSE COMBAT for the roll), Attack -1 DMG 2 at Short (using RANGED COMBAT for the roll). Using these stats, it can be a pretty punishing weapon, but remember it doesn't autoload and effectively can only be fired once every other round.
Just my 2 cents. Really interested in your opinion, though.
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_ArthurDallas_
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Re: Weapon damage...not too coherent?
...yeah, I see what you mean, and I understand the intent of keeping some sort of game balance, but it still feels like a grenade launcher should be more powerful than a service pistol, which isn't the case right now.
Plus, I'm not sure a grenade launcher being too deadly...is a bad thing? Like, one would kind of expect that, right? It's in the hands of the GM to handle those powerful weapons accordingly. Like, you don't make the Alien less deadly to give the players a fighting chance, because that would break the idea of the Alien being a living nightmare, which you want to preserve.
Also, the Harpoon gun does damage 1, but both the bolt gun and the Cutting Torch do damage 3. That does not feel consistent...at all. It feels like those two items should do damage 1 as well. It might be ruled they do Damage 3 against structures and 1 against organic opponents or something similar, and that would keep some sort of external logic and internal coherence with the game.
I despise the Cutting Torch as written as a weapon. I believe my current solution is that it is Attack -2 DMG 3 with Armor Piercing requiring a stunt. This makes it a fairly clumsy weapon in a fistfight, but if you can pin a target before applying its damage, it can do REALLY nasty damage. It can only be used at Engaged Range.
The Bolt Gun I currently keep at an Attack +0 DMG 3 at Engaged (using CLOSE COMBAT for the roll), Attack -1 DMG 2 at Short (using RANGED COMBAT for the roll). Using these stats, it can be a pretty punishing weapon, but remember it doesn't autoload and effectively can only be fired once every other round.
Just my 2 cents. Really interested in your opinion, though.
Tliciousx, I can only agree 100% with your argument... as you said, I want to keep the Xenomorph deadly "like in Alien 1979" and not like "Aliens 1986" where the aliens were as easy to kill as plush toys... you know what I mean... to keep the intense atmosphere in the game where if you encounter a single alien, everyone can die... that's how I like Alien RPGs.
Tliciousx, we can only agree with everything you're saying. Well done. And, in fact, what to change, I need to think about. But you have some good ideas. Perhaps some changes may be very minor.
Arthur.
Moderator (Free League Alien RPG Forums)
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