Carangil
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Patrons

Wed 30 Aug 2023, 21:15

I really like the idea of patrons ... but due to the setting and campaign idea I'm using, most of the core book's patrons are not possible for my group.Are there any guidelines how to "create" a patron? They give fellowship points (most of the time) and other benefits ... I'm a bit at a loss how to come up with useful benefits ... especially for a patron I have in mind.
Maybe the hive mind could help here?

Let's say Ungoliant is still alive and hiding somewhere (I know that there is one theory that has her eat herself, but as far as I know, Tolkien left her end open). Let's further say the interests of the PCs (who are NOT playing evil guys) and Ungoliant align. For a limited time, she might be a patron. What would you associate as benefits with her? Moving in shadows / darkness => Stealth benefits?

Yeah ... I'm working on a very ... strange/special kind of campaign.
 
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Linklite
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Re: Patrons

Thu 31 Aug 2023, 00:40

Ok, so first, you need to identify what the interests that align actually are. I'm not sure how they would, but...what is Ungoliant's purpose behind this? What does she want out of her dealings with the party? What does the party want from Ungoliant?

Once that's out and on the table, I think it's easier to identify what Ungoliant would bring to the union.
 
Carangil
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Re: Patrons

Thu 31 Aug 2023, 00:59

Thanks for answering.

They share a common enemy / dread a certain event that both parties do not want to happen.
The party probably needs information as the players do not yet know who or what really is behind certain smaller events they have experienced.
Ungoliant has an idea what that could be and tries to get the PCs to carry out certain tasks that might prevent the event from happening. She will not easily part with the information who or what she thinks is behind the dreaded event, but sooner or later, the party will find out.

I thought that - as Ungoliant can "cloak" herself and others in shadows - she might provide a bonus on stealth rolls ("Spend a Fellowship point to make the stealh roll favored") ...
but as it's mostly about information (gathering), it could also be lore or scan rolls ... Or they can receive a rumor from her ... or lore. As I said, inspiration for the advantage fails me a bit (and I'm basing my ideas very closely on the examples of patrons in the core rules).
 
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Linklite
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Re: Patrons

Thu 31 Aug 2023, 02:00

Ok, yeah I got that you want them to work together because they both want something to happen or not happen, but you're going to have to actually tell me what it is that they're both hoping to achieve if you want help in coming up with some unique and flavourful advantages. Ungoliant doesn't normally ally herself with Hobbits. So why is she allying herself with the party?

As for your current suggestions, I'd say they're a bit weak. Most of the official ones are more generally applicable or actually do more. For example, Círdan allows you to reroll as many dice you as like in a given roll (way more powerful than making a roll favoured, which effectively gives +2, while Círdan's gives +2 if applied to the d12 and +1 per d6 it is applied to, and stacks with favoured rolls). Balin, who you probably drew inspiration from, does grant favoured rolls, but to combat rolls, which means that they not only get the effective +2 to rolls, but also means they get double shots at getting Piercing. The odds go from 1/6 to 1/3 that they'll get to potentially 1 HKO most enemies or 2 HKO larger ones. That's the real benefit behind Balin's advantage...and skill rolls don't have an equivalent.

At minimum, I'd say give them a +xd advantage instead. Alternatively, you could give them an ability to spend Fellowship to get Magical Success on Stealth rolls, as her gloom surrounds and hides them. If that's too powerful, you can charge multiple Fellowship, or limit it to every so often, or limit it to darkness so the gloom will function as intended, or some combination.
 
Carangil
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Re: Patrons

Thu 31 Aug 2023, 02:14

Thanks again. The party does not consist of Hobbits. I'm reluctant to go into more detail as my players might be reading here, too ... and I'm not yet sure I'll really use that idea ...

Magical success on stealth rolls sounds good ... will come in very handy, too.

I can also think of doing something with her poison ... though using that would very likely incur shadow points ... which could also further the plot ... hm ... ;)
 
Rolando
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Re: Patrons

Thu 31 Aug 2023, 03:23

As a spice for this special, and very particular, patron you may have 2 version of the same boom, one by using fellowship and another, more powerful, if the character takes a shadow point.

Remember that allying with entities of darkness bring you closer to shadow and darkness.

For example, making stealth rolls favored or making them favored and adding a bonus die and/or a re-roll, or a magical success if taking shadow.

They may need the patron but they have a choice of how to deal with the temptation of more power and an easy path.
 
Carangil
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Re: Patrons

Thu 31 Aug 2023, 11:03

That is a great idea. Getting a - comparatively - weak boon for normal Fellowship points and a better one if you accept Shadow points (in addition to the Fellowship point?). Ties in nicely with the type of patron ... and temptation of power is an ever-present theme in Middle Earth ...

And yes ... I should remember to give the PCs Shadow points for even working together with that type of patron.

Edit:So ... Shadow points when the PCs first meet her, possibly 4, Shadow test possible (Dread)
Shadow points when they agree to work with her (have to think about consequences if they refuse), 3 Shadow points? No test (treating it like a "misdeed" ... normally I'd go with 4 and a shadow scar, but together with the possible 4 points from meeting here, that sounds too harsh)

Does that sound ok so far?

2nd Edit: Would the following boon be ok or too much: Spend a Fellowship point AND a Shadow point for every adversary you want to affect: => Ungoliant's Shadow: Adversary is fighting in darkness (more or less blind) and loses 2d6 on his attack rolls, PCs gain 2d6 on their attack rolls.
 
Rolando
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Re: Patrons

Fri 01 Sep 2023, 05:18

Don't overcharge them with shadow just by working with the patron it is, after all, your idea, they may resent that.

A single shadow point for agreeing to work with the patron seems mild enough and the temptation of better gifts for shadow is the big danger, let them play it and fall or rise because of their own deeds.

Of course, they may also end manipulated after a while, shadow is self destructive so the patron may abuse the friendship and send them to do things that are a bit more dark each time, they may realize they are being used and then get extra shadow because of that (dread, Anger?)

But for starters, be mild, at least at the beginning, shadow is a serious affliction.
 
Carangil
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Re: Patrons

Fri 01 Sep 2023, 12:19

Thank you ... good advice.
 
Andwise
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Re: Patrons

Thu 14 Sep 2023, 07:22

Sounds like a really interesting story idea!
Did I read that the Moria book will have Saruman as a patron?
Other patrons in other locations would be useful, like Radagast, Dain, etc.

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