Fria Ligans forum

I come late to the discussion, but I feel I might be able to add something as an ex-HEMA professional (from back before it was called HEMA). This thread highlights some apparent inconsistencies which I was have to read up on before commenting in detail. But I will say this a dagger (other than Main gauche types) is a shit parrying weapon. I imagine the knives in FL to be like late medieval/early modern “bollock daggers” (as we called them in England, other languages might have less ... colloquial names). Try and parry with one of those, and you get stabbed in the hand. And the bloke I stabbed there once (between the knuckles so actually not much damage) tells me it really hurts. 

In fact, I like the rule in Unknown Armies that knives do 1 point of damage even when they “miss”. 

I come late to the discussion, but I feel I might be able to add something as an ex-HEMA professional (from back before it was called HEMA). This thread highlights some apparent inconsistencies which I was have to read up on before commenting in detail. But I will say this a dagger (other than Main gauche types) is a shit parrying weapon. I imagine the knives in FL to be like late medieval/early modern “bollock daggers” (as we called them in England, other languages might have less ... colloquial names). Try and parry with one of those, and you get stabbed in the hand. And the bloke I stabbed there once (between the knuckles so actually not much damage) tells me it really hurts. 

In fact, I like the rule in Unknown Armies that knives do 1 point of damage even when they “miss”. 

I think the consensus here that a main gauche / sword-breaker / parrying dagger is the only knife-type weapon deserving the Parrying trait. Other than that, quarterstaffs and sword-like weapons (including scimitars) which have a guard should be included, but maces, warhammers, morning-stars and other 2H weapons should be excluded.

... Or is that just my take on it and we're not agreed here?

I think the consensus here that a main gauche / sword-breaker / parrying dagger is the only knife-type weapon deserving the Parrying trait. Other than that, quarterstaffs and sword-like weapons (including scimitars) which have a guard should be included, but maces, warhammers, morning-stars and other 2H weapons should be excluded.

... Or is that just my take on it and we're not agreed here?

I don’t want to comment further or agree with anything until I have had a closer look at the weapon lists and rules. For example, morning-stars seem an obvious exclusion, but ALL two handed weapons? I’ll try and read it through tonight, and comment again later. 

I think the consensus here that a main gauche / sword-breaker / parrying dagger is the only knife-type weapon deserving the Parrying trait. Other than that, quarterstaffs and sword-like weapons (including scimitars) which have a guard should be included, but maces, warhammers, morning-stars and other 2H weapons should be excluded.

... Or is that just my take on it and we're not agreed here?

I don’t want to comment further or agree with anything until I have had a closer look at the weapon lists and rules. For example, morning-stars seem an obvious exclusion, but ALL two handed weapons? I’ll try and read it through tonight, and comment again later. 

Yeah, you're right, I should have said "all 2H weapons currently with the trait", by its actually just the 2H Sword.

Here's the list of all weapons, with the parrying trait highlighted:

I come late to the discussion, but I feel I might be able to add something as an ex-HEMA professional (from back before it was called HEMA). This thread highlights some apparent inconsistencies which I was have to read up on before commenting in detail. But I will say this a dagger (other than Main gauche types) is a shit parrying weapon. I imagine the knives in FL to be like late medieval/early modern “bollock daggers” (as we called them in England, other languages might have less ... colloquial names). Try and parry with one of those, and you get stabbed in the hand. And the bloke I stabbed there once (between the knuckles so actually not much damage) tells me it really hurts. 

In fact, I like the rule in Unknown Armies that knives do 1 point of damage even when they “miss”. 

I think the consensus here that a main gauche / sword-breaker / parrying dagger is the only knife-type weapon deserving the Parrying trait. Other than that, quarterstaffs and sword-like weapons (including scimitars) which have a guard should be included, but maces, warhammers, morning-stars and other 2H weapons should be excluded.

... Or is that just my take on it and we're not agreed here?

Are quarterstaffs really that great to parry with? I mean, there is no kind of guard on those so I would count on some fingers being chopped off. Unless the sharp edges get stuck in the wood which would mean that the staff would break quite frequently. Or am I completely oblivious?

As some one that has training with a variety of weapons. Parrying with a quarter staff is not hard. However, if you only training is with swords. It is almost impossible to parry with a quarter staff and not get hurt. With a sword you parry with the tip and parry out. Making it easy to move down the blade if you know how. With most staff type weapons. You learn different type of parrys. It’s hard for me to explain it in words.  
 
From practical experience the weapons hardest to parry with. Are ones that have a lot of weight at the end. The extra weight makes them ideal for damaging armor, and body’s. The extra weight makes it very hard to recover when used to parry. The weight distribution in a weapon is what makes the difference between a good weapon, and a great weapon. 
I recommend the following weapons should have parry.
Shortsword, Broadsword, Longsword, Two-Handed Sword, Scimitar, Staff, Short Spear, and Halberd.
I recommend the following weapons should not have parry.
Mace, Moringstar, and Warhammer. 

As some one that has training with a variety of weapons. Parrying with a quarter staff is not hard. However, if you only training is with swords. It is almost impossible to parry with a quarter staff and not get hurt. With a sword you parry with the tip and parry out. Making it easy to move down the blade if you know how. With most staff type weapons. You learn different type of parrys. It’s hard for me to explain it in words.  
 
From practical experience the weapons hardest to parry with. Are ones that have a lot of weight at the end. The extra weight makes them ideal for damaging armor, and body’s. The extra weight makes it very hard to recover when used to parry. The weight distribution in a weapon is what makes the difference between a good weapon, and a great weapon. 
I recommend the following weapons should have parry.
Shortsword, Broadsword, Longsword, Two-Handed Sword, Scimitar, Staff, Short Spear, and Halberd.
I recommend the following weapons should not have parry.
Mace, Moringstar, and Warhammer. 

Sounds mostly reasonable to me, but I still take issue with the halberd. I'd rather it not have the Parrying trait (meaning anyone could do it), but rather see a Pole-Arm talent allowing the use of any Pole-Arm as a parrying weapon (including the spear and maybe trident?). Because I honestly can't imagine a PC who has never used a pole-arm before picking up one that is 2m+ long and suddenly parrying incoming attacks. I say let it be possible for those with the training (a talent). I'd also say the staff should be included in there, as well, since using it effectively to parry requires more skill and training than a bladed weapon with a guard.

Also, can you please explain how a 2H sword is an effective parrying weapon? Aren't they too heavy and cumbersome, unless you're highly trained in how to use it? I guess I'm just struggling to envision it.

I guess that will need to be the main consideration in the weapon traits, can a barely skilled combatant use the weapon traits or should they only apply when a character has a related weapon talent and appropriate training or experience?

Personally, I'd adapt it thus:

Code: Select all

PARRY: You block your opponent’s attack. Reactive action. Requires a shield or a weapon. Roll MELEE and the shield's or weapon's Gear Bonus. If the attacker STABS you, you get a +2 bonus when you parry with a shield, a +0 bonus when using a weapon with the Parrying trait, or a –2 penalty if you parry with any other weapon. Every x you roll eliminates a x from the attacker’s roll. Any excess x have no effect.

And then I'd only grant the Parrying trait to a small number of weapons, preferably quarterstaffs, 1H weapons with a guard (but not a dagger), and an off-hand defensive weapon like a main gauche / sword-breaker (if one is added).

Then any weapon could be used, but parrying weapons wouldn't be penalised and shields (naturally) would be best for stopping an incoming attack.

This is a beautiful solution. Good job!

As some one that has training with a variety of weapons. Parrying with a quarter staff is not hard. However, if you only training is with swords. It is almost impossible to parry with a quarter staff and not get hurt. With a sword you parry with the tip and parry out. Making it easy to move down the blade if you know how. With most staff type weapons. You learn different type of parrys. It’s hard for me to explain it in words.  
 
From practical experience the weapons hardest to parry with. Are ones that have a lot of weight at the end. The extra weight makes them ideal for damaging armor, and body’s. The extra weight makes it very hard to recover when used to parry. The weight distribution in a weapon is what makes the difference between a good weapon, and a great weapon. 
I recommend the following weapons should have parry.
Shortsword, Broadsword, Longsword, Two-Handed Sword, Scimitar, Staff, Short Spear, and Halberd.
I recommend the following weapons should not have parry.
Mace, Moringstar, and Warhammer. 

Sounds mostly reasonable to me, but I still take issue with the halberd. I'd rather it not have the Parrying trait (meaning anyone could do it), but rather see a Pole-Arm talent allowing the use of any Pole-Arm as a parrying weapon (including the spear and maybe trident?). Because I honestly can't imagine a PC who has never used a pole-arm before picking up one that is 2m+ long and suddenly parrying incoming attacks. I say let it be possible for those with the training (a talent). I'd also say the staff should be included in there, as well, since using it effectively to parry requires more skill and training than a bladed weapon with a guard.

Also, can you please explain how a 2H sword is an effective parrying weapon? Aren't they too heavy and cumbersome, unless you're highly trained in how to use it? I guess I'm just struggling to envision it.

Looking over some of the historical fechtbuch entries at halberds and two-handed swords might help; there are plenty of parrying images, often using half-swording in the latter case.