SvenDerRitter
Topic Author
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun 03 Jul 2022, 00:22

Cosmological Questions in FL

Fri 15 Jul 2022, 02:29

Alright, so I realize I may be barking up the wrong proverbial tree with questions of this nature, since it seems a little out of the scope of FL, but I'm really curious to understand/make sure I understand the cosmos of the Forbidden Lands world.

So there's the world as it is, then there's other worlds/dimensions where demons come from. Demons are essentially alien life, they aren't from the FL world and may come from various different worlds, like how Krasylla and Merigall come from Churmog, but the Bloodlings come from their own world, and according to the GM book and Bitter Reach the Abyss Worms hail from "the stars". Elves also hail from the stars, or at least from the Red Star they were born from, and at least back in the days of Rodenvale had an affinity for the heavens and opening gates between worlds/stars, seeing them as bridges between worlds as well as a means to tell the future. I also somewhat believe dragons are also "extraterrestrial" beings due to the lore on Mul from Bitter Reach which says "Mul was summoned to this world by the Winter King . . . The dragon's hide is black and glistens silver like a starlit sky". He's also described as having a duty to keep anyone from disturbing the wandering stars. I am more iffy on the starry origin of dragons mostly because I don't know as much info about them.

There's also the really weird cosmological implications of the Temple of the Six-Limbed Lord from Crypt of the Mellified Mage, as they are described as having denominations in numerous worlds. They also ". . . decided they would bore upwards through reality, to invade heaven itself", and accidentally ended up in the "sphere where Ravenland sits". Add to that some info coming up in the Book of Beasts with the Gatekeepers, and it feels like there's a bigger, Lovecraftian/Moorcock-esque universe of dimensions in the cosmos, with it's own nebulous ongoings that the Ravenlands unwittingly gets caught up in. This gets me to wonder about tons of things, like the various gods in the FL and where they reside, what the afterlife is like/if there even is one, and what the cosmology of the Forbidden Lands is.
 
User avatar
Konungr
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon 10 Jun 2019, 09:39

Re: Cosmological Questions in FL

Fri 15 Jul 2022, 06:20

The gods in all likelihood don't exist. There is zero actual evidence for any of them.

Further, if you read between the lines for the mythology of the raven and the serpent, you are probably looking at a story about a ship and it's captain. The cap (nick named the serpent) lead humanity across the sea in his ship (the raven) and cut a deal with the elves/dwarves when he landed. This was mythologized into gods which then spun off into Rust and Heme.
 
User avatar
Brior
Posts: 924
Joined: Sat 09 Apr 2011, 10:59

Re: Cosmological Questions in FL

Mon 18 Jul 2022, 10:10

Some aspects on the subject. Feel free to keep up the discussion!

1. In my older Trachorian setting, Bonselmius the Pious states that ”My God is a power that only lets itself be predicted and affected by its own will.” I have basically stayed with that definition, interpreted as: ANY power that is so far above you that you can only beg it for attention, forgiveness, mercy and help counts as a god. This means that ”god” is more of a concept than a class of beings and that what counts as a god may change and vary a lot. It also means that there might be gods above your gods that are so far above you that you don't even know who they are, nor do they care about you.

2. There are in all probability a bunch of ”creator gods”, mighty beings that take some interest in the stability of the world you're in. They might partly work together, partly be competitors within a given structure of rules, much like big corporations in our world are interested in stability of the system. They don't need to be the same type of beings nor on the same level. There are also gods that hate the world and try to wreck or steal it.

3. There are parallell worlds where demons come from (in deed they are called demons because they don't belong here – ”demons” being a concept, much like ”god”)

4. Religious claims about gods do not necessarily reflect the true nature nor existence of the gods in question. Gods that do exists might not necessarily think it's a good idea to reveal their true nature or agenda to the insignificant creatures that worship them. This might be due to Gods finding veils amusing or necessary for your own good or for the world to keep going on.

5. When constructing worlds, I have a tendency to not say more than I have to, since this keeps the world alive, flexible, subject to reinterpretation and to me more interesting. This is much as our own world works and it also goes for science.

6. I can't really comment on how other writers interpret the cosmology of Forbidden lands, even though the ambition is to be compatible.
 
User avatar
Brior
Posts: 924
Joined: Sat 09 Apr 2011, 10:59

Re: Cosmological Questions in FL

Mon 18 Jul 2022, 10:10

Further, if you read between the lines for the mythology of the raven and the serpent, you are probably looking at a story about a ship and it's captain. The cap (nick named the serpent) lead humanity across the sea in his ship (the raven) and cut a deal with the elves/dwarves when he landed. This was mythologized into gods which then spun off into Rust and Heme.
.
I like the idea! You'll actually get more info concerning the raven and the serpent in The Bloodmarches expansion.
 
SvenDerRitter
Topic Author
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun 03 Jul 2022, 00:22

Re: Cosmological Questions in FL

Sun 31 Jul 2022, 22:04

Some aspects on the subject. Feel free to keep up the discussion!

1. In my older Trachorian setting, Bonselmius the Pious states that ”My God is a power that only lets itself be predicted and affected by its own will.” I have basically stayed with that definition, interpreted as: ANY power that is so far above you that you can only beg it for attention, forgiveness, mercy and help counts as a god. This means that ”god” is more of a concept than a class of beings and that what counts as a god may change and vary a lot. It also means that there might be gods above your gods that are so far above you that you don't even know who they are, nor do they care about you.

2. There are in all probability a bunch of ”creator gods”, mighty beings that take some interest in the stability of the world you're in. They might partly work together, partly be competitors within a given structure of rules, much like big corporations in our world are interested in stability of the system. They don't need to be the same type of beings nor on the same level. There are also gods that hate the world and try to wreck or steal it.

3. There are parallell worlds where demons come from (in deed they are called demons because they don't belong here – ”demons” being a concept, much like ”god”)

4. Religious claims about gods do not necessarily reflect the true nature nor existence of the gods in question. Gods that do exists might not necessarily think it's a good idea to reveal their true nature or agenda to the insignificant creatures that worship them. This might be due to Gods finding veils amusing or necessary for your own good or for the world to keep going on.

5. When constructing worlds, I have a tendency to not say more than I have to, since this keeps the world alive, flexible, subject to reinterpretation and to me more interesting. This is much as our own world works and it also goes for science.

6. I can't really comment on how other writers interpret the cosmology of Forbidden lands, even though the ambition is to be compatible.
Those are all really helpful pointers to keep in mind for discussing the Cosmos of FL. I know you may not be an all-encompasing authority on FL things, but it seems like you have some of the best insight and most helpful opinions, so I have a couple of questions. First, just as a matter of theme and style, would you see that the universe for FL is Moorcock-esque/something out of Elric of Melnibone? Where it is essentially a vast multiverse with various worlds, beings and gods that may come into contact with each other/regularly do, that there are cosmic games and rules being played that the PC's only get vague hints of? I ask this because the lore for the Gatekeeper demons has my mind running, since their whole purpose is seemingly to guard gateways between worlds and function almost like customs officers. My second question is, is there any validity to the idea that dragons have an otherworldly origin like Elves do? The lore about the dragon Mul and how he was called upon from another world to fulfill his duty makes me wonder if other dragons have starry/otherworldly origins, or if Mul is a unique case. If dragons do have a starry origin, then are they closely connected to the Elves? It's talked about that Elves interacted with Dragons long ago, like Ferenblaud with Scrana.
 
User avatar
Brior
Posts: 924
Joined: Sat 09 Apr 2011, 10:59

Re: Cosmological Questions in FL

Mon 01 Aug 2022, 10:24

Those are all really helpful pointers to keep in mind for discussing the Cosmos of FL. I know you may not be an all-encompasing authority on FL things, but it seems like you have some of the best insight and most helpful opinions, so I have a couple of questions. First, just as a matter of theme and style, would you see that the universe for FL is Moorcock-esque/something out of Elric of Melnibone? Where it is essentially a vast multiverse with various worlds, beings and gods that may come into contact with each other/regularly do, that there are cosmic games and rules being played that the PC's only get vague hints of? I ask this because the lore for the Gatekeeper demons has my mind running, since their whole purpose is seemingly to guard gateways between worlds and function almost like customs officers. My second question is, is there any validity to the idea that dragons have an otherworldly origin like Elves do? The lore about the dragon Mul and how he was called upon from another world to fulfill his duty makes me wonder if other dragons have starry/otherworldly origins, or if Mul is a unique case. If dragons do have a starry origin, then are they closely connected to the Elves? It's talked about that Elves interacted with Dragons long ago, like Ferenblaud with Scrana.
.
I'm not familiar with the Moorcock cosmology, but what you describe to me wouldn't be out of style for FL. However I'm not really fond of overarching cosmic structures, at least not structures that are ordered and known to anybody in game. I much prefer speculation and attempts at theory that immediately is flawed and shown to have exceptions. If I were to walk the path you suggest, I would probably introduce a single gate between worlds with gatekeeper demons and problems without stating that this necessarily is a universal thing. But for sure there are competing universes and ”gods”.

Concerning the dragons I haven't thought of giving them out-of-world origin, but I can see your point concerning things mentioned in The Bitter Reach, and I'm open to suggestions. Perhaps Magnus Seter cares to expand on the subject?

FYI, the dragons had a godly given task in my older setting of Trachoria: they were around to destroy old and stagnated structures to make way for new, more vital upcoming ones. The dragons weren't really aware of this task, with some exceptions among elder individuals – most of them just enjoy wreaking havoc ;-).
(The idea of destructive powers complementing constructive ones I actually picked up from my veterinary training: in our own skeletons osteoblast cells build bone, while osteoclasts tear it down, all in order to keep the skeleton adaptable and functionally up to date.)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest