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Vader
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Re: Adapting to a more modern/future game.

Tue 16 Aug 2022, 14:00

All true. Then again keep in mind that the US army has tried to replace it's trusty warhorse several times: ACR -program late eighties...

Is a rifle that is 10% better reason enough to invest billions of dollars into it? On the other hand, the update has to happen at some point and current world events might give it the boost it needs.

Let us not forget that ACR was leaning heavily towards the “HK ACR” coming out on top ... when the programme got canned in 1990, as an early victim of the infamous “peace dividend”.

By all appearances, what happened was that Colt had got wind that their candidate was going to be dropped from the programme and therefore put their famously influential lobby on convincing Pentagon that hey, the Russkis are pulling out of the arms race, so why invest all these billions in a weapon nobody needs — after all, none of the candidates is all that much better than the (ahem, Colt) weapon we already have?

Interestingly, Colt didn't even submit a candidate to NGSW ... so as I said, we'll see where it ends. But a 10% (a bit more than that actually, but anyway) that makes the difference between a weapon that is effective on the battlefield and one that isn't might be worth some investment. Better pay the bill to SIG than to the butcher, right?

It is as you said: the change needs to happen — the M4 cuts no mustard outside GWOT, never did. The US is now in a crossroads between allowing its riflemen to remain a factor on the modern battlefield, or becoming obsolete.

The Finnish-Swedish co-op might happen indeed, then again the Finnish army just updated the RK62 to 3 different versions and the caliber is pretty good still against modern body armour ...

It bears noting that the 6B45 is rated as protecting against the Russians' own 7.62x39 AK rounds — i.e. the RK62's calibre — and 7.62x54mmR sniper rifle rounds. I believe the Finns recognise the need acutely enough ... and the Swedes, stuck with 5.56x45, even more so.

I have been able to fire the M3 and it is indeed an improvement but it is still the "same" gun.

That should mainly be because it IS the same gun, shouldn't it? I mean literally the same, physical weapons, just refurbished. And that was — what? three or four years ago? Times have moved on rapidly....
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
Vcutter
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Re: Adapting to a more modern/future game.

Tue 16 Aug 2022, 14:44

The M1,2,3 upgrades were made last year and they have some innovations, like the muzzlebreak used for cutting steel bars etc (though definitely not a new invention). Which I use in my games as +1 when making entry/cutting fence:D
And although the caliber might not be 100% effective against the heaviest of RATNIK -variants lets keep in mind that there is still effec with a body hit, even if the round does not penetrate, and not all parts are armoured etc.
Overall the "value" of infantry small arms when causing casualties in modern battlefield is quite small so I guess it boils down to : are the advantages we get worth the cost, considering that we already have X amount of rifles that are able to do almost the same? Should we invest even more into heavier weapons etc.etc.
But as said: the leap needs to happenat some point but my guess is that unfortunately political and financial reasons overweight the tactical advantages when it comes to the decision makers and upgrading infantry small arms.

But not to turn this into a totally "gun development and politics" thread, here's my take o SIG MCX SPEAR that I use in TW4e, though extremely rare in 2025 maybe if you go more into the future it is commonplace:
AMMO: .277 SIG FURY, DAM: 3, CRIT 4, ROF: 5, RANGE 8 (debatable...represents the flat ballistic trajectory of FURY), MAG 20 (variants available), Armor: 0, Weight 1
Special rules: The SIG FURY ammo creates larger pressures than most rounds. therefore prolonged use can damage the barrel at a faster rate. If the reliability of the gun ever drops to 0, it needs 2 weapon spare parts to fix it.
 
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Vader
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Re: Adapting to a more modern/future game.

Tue 16 Aug 2022, 15:30

The M1,2,3 upgrades were made last year and they have some innovations,

Mmmh ... unless I am mistaken, the RK62 upgrade programme started with evaluation of different possible features in 2011, beginning at the Kaarti jääkäri-regiment, with the three final RK62M versions being presented in 2015.
The procurement of the refurbishment programme was published by the Puolustusministeriö in December of 2016, and the upgraded weapons should have been delivered in 2017-2020.

So, the whole upgrade process has, in all, been going on for over ten years — since well before the Russian annexation of Crimea.

Back in 2015, the Puolustusministeriö projected that an ultimate RK62 replacement might be in the cards for the "late 2020's". Bearing in mind recent events, I wouldn't deem it implausible that they've decided to push it forward just a wee bit...


And yes, they do have some interesting innovations ... the M2/M3 versions' flash suppressor's "breaching accessory" is a spot of genius! But it's still the same decades-old physical guns, just refurbished and updated with new hardware.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
Vcutter
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Re: Adapting to a more modern/future game.

Tue 16 Aug 2022, 15:51

Yup indeed they started it earlier on, but tbh they switched between specs in "what actually should be upgraded" quite a few times and the end result was the M1/2/3 that was implemented last year.
Like with many of these upgrades, only a few rifles have been delivered so far. The main idea of course was to make weapons easier to operate with red dot sights and NVG lasers etc.
As for where the military budget of Fin will be spent... NATO changes things quite a bit so no on e really knows. Fact is that the F35s are not cheap. Add to that other heavier systems that need to be upgraded and I think the good ol RK62 will have quite a few years in it still.
Especially considering that the main infantry strategy of Finland is "behind every blade of grass (branch of tree?) is a man with a rifle" and in the big picture the RK62, especially M variants with optics, fulfill that task easily when wielded by almost a million soldiers.

Nevertheless, SAKO is developing AR's atm but the prototypes that I've seen look awfully lot like any other generic modern M4. Hopefully something innovative will come out of it at the end of the day. But caliber change in armies is always a huge undertaking cosidering costs and logistics.
 
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Vader
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Re: Adapting to a more modern/future game.

Tue 16 Aug 2022, 15:58

Fact is that the F35s are not cheap.

Gaah ... don't remind me.

One would have hoped Ilmavoimat had learned something from the Hornet procurement...


I do have it on good authority however that at least the M3 has been with some units since no later than April 2019.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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Ursus Maior
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Re: Adapting to a more modern/future game.

Wed 17 Aug 2022, 13:09

… our phones rarely live longer than 5 years with battery life substantially diminishing after 2-3 years.

They’ll still work if you can connect them to an external power source — power bank, mains, generator, vehicle, portable solar array, thermoelectric camping stove, string of potatoes…
Sure, you can do that. However, some of these methods need a bit of knowledge to make them work and in general all of these cost ressources to generate power. All of these solutions will then deliver a pocket computer that is immobile and won't fit into a pocket without loosing power. Said pocket computer will quickly loose the use of interconnection with other computers, it will be less usable than, e. g. a desktop computer for office work (text processing, table calculation, general computation of formulas etc.) and it will be less likely to be fixable in case something fails: The smaller microchips are and the more specialized, the less likely you find spare parts with the correct firm ware. If you want to rebuild local computer architecture in post-war 2027ish, I'd use Raspberry Pis or just commercial PCs and not the latest iPhone or Samsung Galaxy.
liber & infractus
 
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Vader
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Re: Adapting to a more modern/future game.

Wed 17 Aug 2022, 13:22

… our phones rarely live longer than 5 years with battery life substantially diminishing after 2-3 years.
They’ll still work if you can connect them to an external power source — power bank, mains, generator, vehicle, portable solar array, thermoelectric camping stove, string of potatoes…
Sure, you can do that. However, some of these methods need a bit of knowledge to make them work and in general all of these cost ressources to generate power. All of these solutions will then deliver a pocket computer that is immobile and won't fit into a pocket without loosing power.

True, except if you can use a portable power bank (those'll eventually run out, too, of course). Dunno if they all consume resources to generate power, though.

Getting a military-grade power pack would be a boon, of course ... if you can jury-rig an adapter between civilian and military USB connectors (or know which equipment you could dismantle to get the basics for one).

If you want to rebuild local computer architecture in post-war 2027ish, I'd use Raspberry Pis or just commercial PCs and not the latest iPhone or Samsung Galaxy.

The advantage of modern smart phones is that they are truly ubiquitous. As long as you can connect them to any live USB power outlet, they'll work — even if it means they'll be permanently tethered to your vehicle, you can still use them.

Sure, anything Raspberry Pi based will be more robust in that sense — but most of those usually require that you really know what you're doing to get them to do what you want.

The flip side of that is of course that if you do know, then you'll be able to really make them jump through hoops...
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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Re: Adapting to a more modern/future game.

Wed 17 Aug 2022, 13:38

Lacking broadscale broadband internet means, there will be no central authority on keeping apps up to date. This means interoperability will cease to exist…

OTOH, if no-one is updating operating systems or network protocols either, then there will be no need to update apps to maintain compatibility with new releases. Everything should keep working in their current versions, with the established interoperability. Apart from any … infrastructure hardware related issues, obvi.

It’ll be sort of like a 90’s with Internet.
For reference — the 90’s was a time when Mac OS 7 and Windows 3.11 were the current major releases for most of the decade, and everything just worked (at least for Mac users). If you bought Claris Works in 1992, it still worked just fine in 1997.
That's not how networks in the 90s worked, believe me. And it will not work as easily in a 202X scenario. Sure, your personal copy of Microsoft Office 365 on a mobile device or indeed any device will most likely keep on working (though auto-log-outs can be a problem, see here: https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/ ... uto-logout and here: https://borncity.com/win/2021/12/17/mic ... 21-update/). However, since not all networks fail at the same time, not all versions of a program on all devices will be the same. Simple example: You're on vacation or don't access your device or program for a couple of weeks and miss several updates. Then, your network fails and you're locked out of the update cycle. Some software products don't like to interact with older versions of themselves and will refuse working with your version for security reasons. Other example: Your device fails terminally, but you manage to save your work and even the program data onto another device. But logging into the software remains impossible, since your account cannot be verified due to a lacking connection.

Do offline applications still exist in 202X? Sure, they most likely do, but they become increasingly rare in professional fields. Your M365 fails and you want to open your company's latest tables with an old OpenOffice installation you found on a private flash drive? Good luck opening XSLX-files with older version of free office softwares without downloading any add-ons.

For everyone feeling the pains of digitalizing analogue office and general work routines and processess, I guarantee you bringing back paper and crappy software from 10-15 years ago is much harder. Undoing the digital era would be a nightmare, especially if a company or state agency has been running for 10+ years (actually more like 2+) years on digital workflows. With the old guard retired or replaced or at least badly out of daily routines and a world wide emergency situation going on, that's going to be a nightmare.

There are reasons, why national emergency agencies plan and drill for this. But they're not coming to aid your local mom & pop shop or small workshop to go all DOS, punchcards and pencil again. They'll be busy not starving to death themselves.
liber & infractus
 
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Vader
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Re: Adapting to a more modern/future game.

Wed 17 Aug 2022, 14:27

Lacking broadscale broadband internet means, there will be no central authority on keeping apps up to date. This means interoperability will cease to exist…

OTOH, if no-one is updating operating systems or network protocols either, then there will be no need to update apps to maintain compatibility with new releases. Everything should keep working in their current versions, with the established interoperability. Apart from any … infrastructure hardware related issues, obvi.

It’ll be sort of like a 90’s with Internet.
For reference — the 90’s was a time when Mac OS 7 and Windows 3.11 were the current major releases for most of the decade, and everything just worked (at least for Mac users). If you bought Claris Works in 1992, it still worked just fine in 1997.

That's not how networks in the 90s worked, believe me.

Oh, I believe you — indeed, I know it very well first-hand. That's what I meant when I said "sort of like a 90's with internet" — trying to convey the meaning "sort of like computers worked in the 90's, only with internet".
For most of the 90's we didn't have internet. What "networks" we did have (barely deserving the name by today's standards) relied on dial-up connections, and were cumbersome and unreliable as hell. I myself only started getting familiar with Ethernet-based LAN and Internet WAN from 1998 onwards.

What I'm trying to describe is a state when your entire IT environment is static — no-one is updating any Microsoft products anywhere, from OS to apps, because Seattle was nuked, freezing that entire ecosystem at the current versions. Then not having access to updates isn't as much of a problem — there won't be any updates to not have access to. Everything should continue to operate basically indefinitely at status quo in that static environment.

Then, your network fails and you're locked out of the update cycle

Yes, I follow you — but as I'm proposing: what if that next update cycle never comes?


Anyway, much of what you're referring to seems to revolve around cases where local client apps rely on cloud-based services. And yes, likely those will see a lot of problems. Your Huawei's TikTok app probably wouldn't talk to the servers ... whyever you'd want it to in the first place, since both'll just reveal your position to the Chinese toot sweet, who will then immediately inform the Russians.

But entirely cloud based services that offer a web app — say a Teams — you could probably still access many of them through a browser.

Actually though, I was primarily thinking about more basic Internet based functionalities. It would take a lot more to knock out e.g. the email system. If you have an established VPN tunnel (and nobody updates anything) you would probably still be able to exchange files. Your CCTV IP camera will still answer to your remote software. So on.

And also ... yes, there are some systems that don't want to talk with older versions of themselves. But I do believe that there are also several that don't mind.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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Re: Adapting to a more modern/future game.

Wed 17 Aug 2022, 23:54

I see, we're talking much of the same stuff then. There would be a lot of opportunities for searching people and parts to use in such a world. :)
liber & infractus

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