mrdabakkle
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Re: Men of Bree

Wed 23 Feb 2022, 00:58

But for your cultural blessing, perhaps we should take a look at how 1e Bree Blood worked. It made Breelanders bad at any Valour tests and really good at any Wisdom test. So rework the blessing to say "Men of Bree add 1 additional Fellowship to the pool, and all Valor (Dread) tests are made ill-favoured. Conversely all Shadow Wisdom tests are favored and Wisdom (sorcery) tests gain 1d."
I feel fairly comfortable in saying that if you put ill-favored on Valor (Dread) tests into the Cultural Blessing, you might as well not have Men of Bree as a character option. Those tests can be pretty vicious - not only do you gain multiple Shadow points on failure, but in combat you're usually unable to spend Hope for the rest of the fight.
That is fair enough in 1e Valour tests got a -2 penalty and wisdom tests got a +4 boost. But that was the extent of the blessing, and it did not get the boost to the Fellowship pool. The blessing was suppose to represent Bree Folk's insular nature. They close themselves off from the horror of the world and so are more freighted by the horrible monsters. But they are also a suscpicius folk, and deeply distrusting of magic, so had a boost to resist those effect.
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Aiden Harrison
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Re: Men of Bree

Wed 23 Feb 2022, 01:20

If you want to be a big damn hero, look to the other cultures, they have an easier route.
It's easy to make a character who isn't combat capable, or out of their depth. Take the stat array that has the lowest Strength and highest Heart, don't buy up combat proficiencies, focus on noncombat skills, and focus on Cultural Virtues that don't improve combat ability. However, all playstyles should be feasible with each race. If you want to play the Bree guard captain who has been roped into an adventure, then it would be nice to make them capable at their chosen profession.
You can make a Bree guard captain who is capable at his profession, give him a Strength of 4, a spear skill of 3, a Fell spear and prowess in Strength. He will be more than capable of holding his own.

Will he be as good as a Barding guard captain who turned to adventure? No, nor should he be.

He will bring other things to the table though.
 
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Harlath
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Re: Men of Bree

Wed 23 Feb 2022, 12:56

while I agree to a certain degree, the problem is that combat is a core element of the rules (the one likely to be covered directly or indirectly in a majority of the pages) and a common element in gaming sessions by nature of being a RPG game as well as the theme with enemies that you just cannot argue with.
I think one element TOR 1e and 2e differ from other games is the space given to combat rules, p93-104 in the 2e TOR core book v p152-175 in my A Song of Ice and Fire RPG (Game of Thrones Edition), p91-109 in Savage Worlds (Deluxe Edition). Star Wars Saga Edition is p142-p163 on combat (the 3.0-3.5 D&D era of Star Wars rules). Or p133-160 of the D&D 3.5 player's handbook. And naturally as you point out some other pages touch on combat (a Virtue etc), but that tends to be true across game systems.

- "On average, a Company will experience at least one combat encounter in one out of every two sessions of play." - so while not infrequent some campaigns might have a lot of combat, others less. I think it's okay if some PCs are better at combat than others, as long as PCs are all good at something. And I like the flexibility to be able to "play against type" with a Hobbit or Man of Bree fighter, but I think a few of us having hopefully shown how to do that in this thread. In the Chamber fight in Moria Boromir and Aragorn "slew many" and Legolas shoots two through the throat: it's their moment! But the text also find a little time for Sam receiving a scrape to his head in felling an orc. He doesn't kill as many, but the loremaster still highlights it as relative to his Attributes and Combat Proficiency it is a great deed.
- You can Rally Comrades/Intimidate foes, although if you've got good Strength (for using Awe in Intimidate Foes) you've often invested in Combat Proficiency, so Rally Comrades is a likely use for non-combat focused PCs. With a decent sized group and some High Strength friends, you can contribute more damage this way than via an attack. Converting a hit or two from a miss, or adding an extra 1d that ends up a 6 adds to the group's damage output.
- Battle rolls: if you've got poor Strength, you've presumably got good Heart and Wits. Your plans and aid could help your fellow PCs or hinder their foes by "kicking a fire to raise a cloud of sparks". If the action makes sense, then I think Battle rolls can help other PCs or hinder their foes (and indeed other Skills being used for the same purpose via "Other actions"). Or just use Battle to Protect comrade, but that isn't as interesting, fun or dramatic as some of the ideas here! [Savage worlds does this really well via a wide range of skills being able to impart the Distracted or Vulnerable debuff on foes, the limit is the player's imagination and the situation]
- "Other actions" (p98): combat isn't just about killing the enemy, as the rules are keen to emphasise on p93-94. While Daeron and Cirion, your high Strength and Parry High Elf and Ranger friends hold off the Orcs at the doorway, you can raise the drawbridge with Athletics/use Lore to complete the ritual/craft to light the Signal fire that summons the eagles or cavalry etc. Use Athletics/Craft to topple a Stone or Pillar on foes. Or you can be busy rescuing the prisoners, as once they're out of their cages they'll help turn the tide. Or maybe you use Scan/Awareness or even Hunting/Lore to seek out a weakness in a foe as your action, letting other PCs strike at a weak point and lowering its Armour dice. Maybe the fight is just a distraction so the Hobbit can use Stealth to grab a key ritual component and then the PCs flee from their overwhelming foes? The kind of help the non-combatants might offer in an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, if I can blend genres!
- TOR 2e combat is quick, so if you're not the star of a particular scene you'll shine promptly later rather than sitting around for hours. I'm very keen on everyone being useful in different ways in Pathfinder where combats last a long time, but doesn't have to be the case here and can match the theme. As long as it is a player choice to specialise elsewhere and not an accident! Continuing my theme from above, Buffy might get a big fight scene, but we also get scenes where we see the decisive contribution Giles/Willow (etc) made via research.

That said, I would like to see a few more Combat actions, just as we eventually saw more in 1e. Trying to figure out source material appropriate ideas with interesting mechanical niches below.

- Something that gave PCs a route to interact with a foe's Hate/Resolve? The alpha's Intimidate Foes did this and while I can see why they changed it in the published rules (published version more generally useful v physical attacks), there are some foes where the threat comes more from Hate/Resolve spending. We retain some of this with the special riddle action in 2e, but could see something similar to the Alpha's Intimidate Foes returning.
- Formalising some of my ideas above, like pointing out a weakness in a foe's armour? That feels less necessary to me as I'm happy to operate ad-hoc, but understand if many want these things standardised.
- I'd like something similar to 1e's "swift strokes" to clear lots of lesser foes quickly if you're a good fighter. This came in a supplement. We see multiple foes defeated quickly several times in the source material, but it is hard to emulate that at the moment bar some Magical Rewards. But that doesn't really help our non-combatant!
- Endurance recovery has understandably been dropped from 2e in Combat options (now happens after combat, avoids weirdness like dragging out a combat for Endurance recovery). Are there particular mechanical things a non-combatant could cover? We've got debuffs (Intimidate), buffs (Rally Comrades), combat healing is potentially out (albeit could reintroduce it!) and removing debuffs (Weary condition) is covered as a Secondary action already (via Song). Protecting allies is covered by Battle. But I think my idea above on attacking Hate/Resolve could work as it was in the Alpha and there are other player mechanics that do this (Gleam of Wrath, Gleam of Terror, Biting Dart, Riddle against trolls or Intimidate Foe against Craven foes).
- Rhymes of Lore/Protective rituals via Riddle and Lore to drain Hate from Undead/Werewolf foes feels genre appropriate. Song too given what we see of Luthien's deeds (albeit the PCs are on a lesser scale!). Easy to expand out the Troll use of Riddle.
 
Dunheved
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Re: Men of Bree

Wed 23 Feb 2022, 17:02

So, another combat task using one of the Wits based skills? (Scan or Riddle or Lore come to mind)

Defensive or Rearward. 'Seek Tactical Edge' : roll on agreed skill - Scan maybe - the PC can call out to a second PC something that either gives a moderate Complication against a foe (+ 2 TN ), or a moderate Advantage (- 2 TN ), page 102, for that second PC.
With a T result, more PC s can gain this benefit, or the Complication/ Advantage is increased (+/- 4 to the TN) to Severe.
Failure works the opposite effect as the second PC is distracted by the advice on tactics, or it is the wrong tactic.
 
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Harlath
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Re: Men of Bree

Wed 23 Feb 2022, 17:10

So, another combat task using one of the Wits based skills? (Scan or Riddle or Lore come to mind)

Defensive or Rearward. 'Seek Tactical Edge' : roll on agreed skill - Scan maybe - the PC can call out to a second PC something that either gives a moderate Complication against a foe (+ 2 TN ), or a moderate Advantage (- 2 TN ), page 102, for that second PC.
With a T result, more PC s can gain this benefit, or the Complication/ Advantage is increased (+/- 4 to the TN) to Severe.
Failure works the opposite effect as the second PC is distracted by the advice on tactics, or it is the wrong tactic.
Although are we eating in to Battle's role (and Battle rolls!) if we do this? I was worried about that, so I tried to go in a different direction.
 
Fedifensor
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Re: Men of Bree

Wed 23 Feb 2022, 18:49

I think the issue is less about giving noncombat options that would require additional rules (Rally Comrades and Protect Companion already provide notable benefits), and more about options for those who want to play a Man (or Woman) of Bree as a combat character. It is possible to make a Bree-folk decent at combat despite their lower Strength, but they do not have the combat-oriented Cultural Virtues that allow every other Culture (even hobbits!) an unique way to stand out.

Saying a Bree-folk "shouldn't be as good at fighting" is a form of stereotyping and discrimination. What makes a man or woman of Bree so different from a man or woman of Dale that one can excel at combat and another cannot? There isn't even the excuse of racial differences that you see between dwarves, elves, and hobbits - Men of Bree and Bardings are both part of the race of Man (as are Rangers).

It's quite possible that future supplements for 2nd edition will give additional options besides weapon use in combat, and they will be welcome...but they shouldn't be restricted by Culture, nor should they be used as a reason to avoid Cultural Virtues for Men of Bree that can be used in combat.
 
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Aiden Harrison
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Re: Men of Bree

Wed 23 Feb 2022, 20:36

Breeland is a sleepy little town and a few villages while Dale is a city, plus the Dalelands which are expanding. Bree has a town watch, Dale has an expanding military presence.

Breeland is not a militant culture, Dale is.

Bree is led by a Reeve, Dale is led by a Dragonslayer.

Bree is protected by the efforts of the Rangers, Dale has to stand by its own military might (with Dwarven help).

Saying all that, it's your game dude, if you want to buff Breelanders- do it.
 
Asgo
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Re: Men of Bree

Wed 23 Feb 2022, 20:43

by that measuring scale the hobbits are way overpowered, just saying. ;)
 
Fedifensor
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Re: Men of Bree

Wed 23 Feb 2022, 21:06

Bardlings come from the same culture as the Master of Lake-town, who was great at talking (and taking, and stealing), but not so great at fighting.

A combat-oriented Cultural Virtue doesn't mean that everyone in the culture has it - it's an option for exceptional individuals. Bard was an exceptional individual. So was Bullroarer Took, who came from a culture that doesn't even have a military. The entire law enforcement of the Shire is twelve volunteer Sheriffs spread out among the Four Farthings. The Men of Bree should also have combat options for exceptional individuals.
 
mrdabakkle
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Re: Men of Bree

Wed 23 Feb 2022, 23:30

That is why I think if you want to rework desperate courage back to how it worked in 1e, that will make Bree Landers stand out against tough opponents. A plus 3 parry against any enemy with an attribute of 6 or higher when fighting is close combat is a nice boon, and is about as comparable to Small Folk or Durin's Way. I think adding a bonus to wisdom rolls to might be helpful for the cultural blessing. That one change to Desperate Courage makes a Bree Lander with a spear a very hard to hit foe. Since when using Fend Off with spears you increase your parry by 3 for the round or next round (depending on whaat side has the initiative.) I don't even think Rough and Tumble is even really needed if Desperate Courage is changed in this way. But I also do like the way Desperate Courage is now, like I said above I would use it for attacks and protection tests as common skills have traits and useful items that can help them.
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