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Ursus Maior
Posts: 278
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Re: Errata

Fri 02 Sep 2022, 23:46

That is certainly how I feel to. I hope, I can fill that gap on my table. I find 4E to have both a good set of rules I can work with and build upon as well as having a dedicated fan base within the greater T2K community of players. That makes a lot of things achievable for me.
liber & infractus
 
Ansalander
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri 20 Jan 2017, 07:29
Location: Eastern Washington, USA

Re: Errata - HMG ranges

Wed 28 Sep 2022, 21:19

Weapon ranges:
Mk19 range is 20
M2HB is 15
Each hex is 10m
Extreme range is 8x short range (above)
Making maximum extreme ranges:
Mk19 1600m
M2HB only 1200m

I’m very experienced with these weapons. The M2HB effective range is longer than the Mk19, and is considerably more accurate at the long end of “effective” range than the Mk19. That’s not even considering maximum range, for which the M2HB is FAR longer.

I don’t have either field manual, but here’s what Wikipedia says and that is in agreement with my memory.

Maximum effective range:
Mk19 1500m
M2HB 1800m

If we consider the high end of “effective” ranges to be equivalent to the high end of in-game extreme range, this is what you get:

Mk19 range 19 (hey! Not bad, book says 20)
M2HB range 23

This is my point. The M2HB range of 15 is just inaccurate IMO. This weapon has a mechanism to lock it into a mode where each trigger press only fires one round. It can double as an extremely bulky marksman or even sniper rifle in this mode. Also, in full automatic fire, the M2HB “beaten zone”, which is the area that all of the rounds land, is quite small, even at range.

Also, I wouldn’t have assigned the Mk19 a reliability of 5. It is notorious, even as recently as the second gulf war, for being a real pig, especially without ONE very specific lubricant that was sometimes in short supply even in good times. We had to lubricate this gun to a ludicrous amount (it was a sloppy mess, no exaggeration), to include the ammo links and even the ammo feed chute…

The M2HB though? Well, the variant I know the most about (USMC early to mid 1990s) had adjustable headspace and timing. It was designed that way so that it could be adjusted to fire poorly manufactured ammunition, which was an issue at the time of its development. This adjustment isn’t gunsmith work - crews DRILL it because they do it themselves, every time they deploy it (re-attach the barrel and fix to vehicle or tripod) after breaking it down for transport or re-positioning. In a pinch, you can use motor oil as lubricant and it works just fine, just don’t spray it on a hot barrel… M2HB reliability is as high as you can go (5), as it should be.
 
Oddball_E8
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: Errata - HMG ranges

Fri 30 Sep 2022, 07:46

This is my point. The M2HB range of 15 is just inaccurate IMO. This weapon has a mechanism to lock it into a mode where each trigger press only fires one round. It can double as an extremely bulky marksman or even sniper rifle in this mode. Also, in full automatic fire, the M2HB “beaten zone”, which is the area that all of the rounds land, is quite small, even at range.
Wasn't there a famous sniper in the Vietnam War that did just that. Used an M2HB with a mounted scope as a sniper rifle?

I have a vague recollection of reading about that.
 
Vcutter
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat 23 May 2020, 09:55

Re: Errata

Fri 30 Sep 2022, 13:57

One can obviously change weapon stats and hack the system quite easily and it's not a big deal.
The system overall doesn't aim for ultimate "realism" imo as much as playability. But of course since the setting involves so much war and weapons, a certain degree of "gun porn" and stat debating is of course inevitable. Many stats are a bit off when it comes to longer ranges in the game but I think overall they are accurate enough, especially considering the ranges of engagement in a typical TW game.
Also, I wouldn’t have assigned the Mk19 a reliability of 5.
The reliability overall doesn't seem to be tied up so much to the reliability of the weapon system in general in the game engine. The only exceptions are the M60 (rel 4) and pipe guns (rel 3).
Having fooled around with various weapon systems I agree with your assessment: they are not all equal when it comes to reliability in real life. Then again the reliability is USUALLY more of a matter of upkeep and maintenance of the weapon system than built in flaws (which, of course can also be found).
I have solved the problem by using the Gun care rule, p91: The Referee can call for gun care after extraordinary exposure of some sort, like moving through water or mud. Thing is that in my game not ALL weapons have to be cared after so well when dragged through blood and mud, just the ones prone to malfunctions. This gives players that use the more robust weapons a nice little boost without affecting stats in anyway and also highlights a bit differences in similar weapon systems (should I carry the not too picky AK or go for the earlier generation M-16?)
Of course the downside is that the referee would have to know a bit more about different firearms.
 
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FatherJ_ct
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed 21 Sep 2022, 07:38

Re: Errata

Sat 15 Oct 2022, 03:20

Keep in mind that REL is about quality of construction/functioning....NOT it's chance of jamming. I think that is where most people's confusion comes from.

I read that M60s were notorious in vietnam for barrel melts due to high ROF https://www.military.com/video/guns/mac ... 0909933001 30 seconds into firing the barrel is glowing ...and pipe bombs and zip guns are shoddy/hurried manufacture. Which is why almost everything is REL 5. It is not about an AK being able to take mud/dirt better than an M16, it is purely about the construction/functioning.

pg 91 player's manual "Each point of damage from
pushing rolls or outside force will reduce the reliability
rating by 1. When it reaches zero, the item is broken and
can no longer be used. A typical piece of sturdy, mechanical
gear in good condition has a reliability rating of 5, but
delicate or badly built gear can start with a lower rating.
If no hit reliability is listed, assume it to be 5."

So in the M60's case of REL 4...the more you push...the more you are "melting" the barrel. etc.

Vcutter points out the good rule on 91 about maintenance and care....that if not done, the REL will drop. I think the mechanic would then be that M16s need more maint to prevent REL from decreasing than AKs. comparison: https://www.military-today.com/firearms/m16_vs_ak47.htm

Differences of chance of jams are not in the rules from what I can see.
 
Trongard
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri 17 Feb 2023, 08:40

Re: Errata

Fri 17 Feb 2023, 08:43

Vehicle Gunner Specialization

How is this supposed to be acquired in Character Generation?
 
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Fenhorn
Moderator
Posts: 4428
Joined: Thu 24 Apr 2014, 15:03
Location: Sweden

Re: Errata

Fri 17 Feb 2023, 09:20

Vehicle Gunner Specialization

How is this supposed to be acquired in Character Generation?
If you roll a specialization that you already have, you can choose any specialization.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
Trongard
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri 17 Feb 2023, 08:40

Re: Errata

Fri 17 Feb 2023, 14:13

Vehicle Gunner Specialization

How is this supposed to be acquired in Character Generation?
If you roll a specialization that you already have, you can choose any specialization.
I understand that, but if the Specialization does not show up on any list, how would the player find it without intensive reading?
 
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Fenhorn
Moderator
Posts: 4428
Joined: Thu 24 Apr 2014, 15:03
Location: Sweden

Re: Errata

Fri 17 Feb 2023, 14:21

Vehicle Gunner Specialization

How is this supposed to be acquired in Character Generation?
If you roll a specialization that you already have, you can choose any specialization.
I understand that, but if the Specialization does not show up on any list, how would the player find it without intensive reading?
On Player's Manual p.49 - p.51, all specializations are listed. A player should take a look at those pages anyway since he need to learn what his specializations he got (randomized or chosen) works.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore

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