Fria Ligans forum

Hi Refs and FL,

I had a quick question or two about grenades that I'd love some clarity on. First, an easy one. Do grenades suffer from deviation on misses? Reason would indicate that they would, but it's not stated explicitly in the player handbook so I wanted to ask just to be sure.

Second, grenade damage - grenades are listed with both direct damage and blast power. The example of a grenade being used in the player's handbook (pg. 68) indicates that the grenade only did blast damage to Diaz. Is that because the grenade only landed in the same hex as Diaz and wasn't targeting Diaz? Is there a certain proximity to a grenade that a target should be before they take both the direct damage and the blast damage? Should grenades only have blast damage and not both types? Or was the example just written poorly and Diaz should have taken more damage? Any thoughts here or official rulings would be super helpful to clarify the intent of the rules on this topic.

Thank you!

I had a quick question or two about grenades that I'd love some clarity on. First, an easy one. Do grenades suffer from deviation on misses? Reason would indicate that they would, but it's not stated explicitly in the player handbook so I wanted to ask just to be sure.

Hand Grenades have some special rules about them, but other than those they follow the rules of Heavy Weapons, so yes the deviate if you miss.

Second, grenade damage - grenades are listed with both direct damage and blast power. The example of a grenade being used in the player's handbook (pg. 68) indicates that the grenade only did blast damage to Diaz. Is that because the grenade only landed in the same hex as Diaz and wasn't targeting Diaz? Is there a certain proximity to a grenade that a target should be before they take both the direct damage and the blast damage? Should grenades only have blast damage and not both types? Or was the example just written poorly and Diaz should have taken more damage? Any thoughts here or official rulings would be super helpful to clarify the intent of the rules on this topic.

When you use a Heavy Weapon, like a Grenade Launcher (or a thrown Hand Grenade), you can target an individual (with a -2 penalty) or you can target something big (like a vehicle) or you can just target the hex. If you target an individual (or a large target), then that individual (if you hit) will suffer Direct Damage (2 for a frag grenade +1 for each extra success) and then there will be a blast (C for a frag grenade) that will do damage according to the explosion rules.
So, since -2 is a lot, it might be good enough to just aim the Hand Grenade for the hex instead. Sure, no one will get the Direct Damage, but you also hopefully won't miss.

I have been running it as everyone in the target hex takes the grenade damage then roll the blast and apply it to those in the target hex and then those in the hex’s in the blast radius.

Grenades should be deadly.

Another optional rule you might want to use would be to increase the blast power if the explosion is inside a confined space. Throwing a grenade into a building through a window, or down the hatch of a vehicle, is going to do more damage than if it exploded in the open.

I had a quick question or two about grenades that I'd love some clarity on. First, an easy one. Do grenades suffer from deviation on misses? Reason would indicate that they would, but it's not stated explicitly in the player handbook so I wanted to ask just to be sure.

Hand Grenades have some special rules about them, but other than those they follow the rules of Heavy Weapons, so yes the deviate if you miss.

Second, grenade damage - grenades are listed with both direct damage and blast power. The example of a grenade being used in the player's handbook (pg. 68) indicates that the grenade only did blast damage to Diaz. Is that because the grenade only landed in the same hex as Diaz and wasn't targeting Diaz? Is there a certain proximity to a grenade that a target should be before they take both the direct damage and the blast damage? Should grenades only have blast damage and not both types? Or was the example just written poorly and Diaz should have taken more damage? Any thoughts here or official rulings would be super helpful to clarify the intent of the rules on this topic.

When you use a Heavy Weapon, like a Grenade Launcher (or a thrown Hand Grenade), you can target an individual (with a -2 penalty) or you can target something big (like a vehicle) or you can just target the hex. If you target an individual (or a large target), then that individual (if you hit) will suffer Direct Damage (2 for a frag grenade +1 for each extra success) and then there will be a blast (C for a frag grenade) that will do damage according to the explosion rules.
So, since -2 is a lot, it might be good enough to just aim the Hand Grenade for the hex instead. Sure, no one will get the Direct Damage, but you also hopefully won't miss.

Thank you, @Fenhorn - that's incredibly helpful. Can I also ask you then about Penetration? In the example on page 86 of the Player's handbook, Ronson fires an AT4 at a T-72. The AT4 ends up with a penetrating attack of 8 against the T-72's armor of 8 (due to the -1 armor modifier). The attack does not penetrate. Clearly, the blast damage from the AT4 round isn't added to the 8 damage from the AT4s attack. Presumably this is because the weapon failed to penetrate, and only the direct damage determines whether the shot has penetrated, and if it does, then the explosive power is applied accordingly to the individuals inside the T72.

But if that's the case, say for an example, you threw a frag grenade at a super light vehicle, such as a Jeep. The frag grenade AND the blast damage from the frag grenade have an armor modifier of +1, and the Jeep has 1 armor on all sides. With the frag grenade and blast damage only doing 2 damage each, therefore both the grenade itself would fail to penetrate, but also the blast damage would fail to penetrate the Jeep. Effectively, any vehicle with even an armor rating of 1 on all sides becomes effectively immune to any blast from a frag grenade unless multiple successes are rolled. The same is true of all materials with an armor class of 1 as well. Is that correct?

Yes, direct damage and blast damage are two different things. Regarding frag grenades, yes they aren't very good at penetration (and also they aren't meant to kill, they are meant to damage soft targets).
Immune is a strong word. It is fairly doable to hit a vehicle in a good spot if you know what you re doing (i.e. gett two successes or more).

Good to know that we're interpreting that rule correctly. One more that we came across if you don't mind?

Corrections and grenade launchers. So the portion on corrections says that corrections are specifically for mortars and howitzers. But then the very next section seems to imply that grenade launchers can benefit from corrections as well if there is a spotter available. Do we know if grenade launchers were left off of the Corrections section on accident? Or was there a conscious decision to include them only in the indirect fire section, and if so, why?

Good to know that we're interpreting that rule correctly. One more that we came across if you don't mind?

Corrections and grenade launchers. So the portion on corrections says that corrections are specifically for mortars and howitzers. But then the very next section seems to imply that grenade launchers can benefit from corrections as well if there is a spotter available. Do we know if grenade launchers were left off of the Corrections section on accident? Or was there a conscious decision to include them only in the indirect fire section, and if so, why?

My guess is that you can do corrections for mortar and howitzer fire and not grenade launcher fire because a mortar and a howitzer is that a grenade launcher is a hand held weapon, a mortar and a howitzer is not.

My guess is that you can do corrections for mortar and howitzer fire and not grenade launcher fire because a mortar and a howitzer is that a grenade launcher is a hand held weapon, a mortar and a howitzer is not.

I second that. This also gives knee mortars a nice niche existence, e. g. the British L9A1 51 mm light mortar.

My guess is that you can do corrections for mortar and howitzer fire and not grenade launcher fire because a mortar and a howitzer is that a grenade launcher is a hand held weapon, a mortar and a howitzer is not.

You're on the right track — but the difference is actually a bit more basic even than that (note e.g. that the Mk.19 grenade launcher isn't exactly handheld either):

The significant differentiator here is that howitzers and mortars are indirect fire weapons, whereas grenade launchers are direct fire weapons.

In indirect fire, grenades are fired on a very high parabolic trajectory — most often over terrain that blocks the target from the weapon's location — and land on the target tens of seconds, up to a couple of minutes, after being launched. Sights don't have a "crosshairs" you place on the target; instead, you fix the sights on a reference and then start dialling the azimuth and elevation. Hence a need for spotters, and corrections.

Direct fire is line-of-sight. Even 40mm grenades and rifle grenades (which for some reason seem to be omitted from the game), which have a relatively high trajectory due to being slow, still are primarily direct fire. Projectile flight times are, compared to indirect fire, relatively short (a few seconds, tops); sights work basically the same as on any firearm. The gunner can always observe where rounds land and adjust his point of aim accordingly. Hence, spotters don't really enter into the picture — the gunner is his own spotter, as it were.
You can use these weapons in an indirect fire mode to lob grenades over terrain obstacles, but they don't really have sights for that use — you'll basically fire at random. Sort of like firing a rifle around a corner.

51mm light mortars ... often don't really have any sights either, beyond a painted line along the spine that helps give you a general hunch that you're pointing it sort of in a desired-ish direction. No real help to gauge elevation.
I'd say their main use is to fire ordnance like illumination and smoke shells, where precise aim isn't really a big thing. When used to fire HE, again, you're back to firing mostly at random. It's highly unlikely you could even effectively target a specific 10m hex.