Oddball_E8
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: Player Starting Money

Sat 20 Nov 2021, 20:22

I am playing the Sgt that taught me to play in Okinawa in the 80s and in no way would Marines at the very least, be missing all of their basic supply items issued to EVERYONE. Only if they were somehow captured first.

We are expanding the initial gear list.
If you have a rifle you have a bayonet.
Everyone has a sleeping bag.
Since you get 3 rations of water that means you have 3 canteens instead of the normal 2 issued.
Everyone has a poncho for rain gear.
Everyone has 3 sets of fatigues, standard issue.
Since it is Europe everyone has a cold weather coat as well.
I forgot about E-tool which we will add as well. Marines have used them to fight with many times when running out of ammo over the 20th century.
Everyone also has a gas mask, MOPP is not always standard issue but it was in Desert Storm. Gas masks are always standard issue though.
Everyone has a flashlight with red, blue and clear lenses.
Everyone has a backpack.
Everyone with a rifle has 2 ammo pouches with a total of 7 magazines, 1 inserted in weapon 6 in the 2 pouches. If you want to say they have lost some in combat that is on you. Most Marines unless in full retreat in a massive fire fight would not leave their empty magazines behind.
Side arms have a standard 3 magazines, 2 in a pouch 1 in weapon.
Web gear is standard issue for carrying canteens, ammo pouches, E-tool and Gas mask.
I am impressed that none of that has broken or gotten lost in the last 2-3 years that you've been waging war without supply lines at all.

What people seem to forget about this game is that it wasn't like the players got sent fresh from the states with full gear into Operation Reset and then ran away after a few minutes of battle.

The players have been at war for 2-3 years at this point, with pretty much zero supply lines. They managed to pull together enough men and equipment to put Operation Reset into motion, but if you read the descriptions most soldiers had worn and patched (and re-patched) uniforms and equipment. Remember, like it says on p. 08 of the referee manual: "When the smoke clears, the US has obliterated the Soviet navy, but suffered huge losses in the process. President West has lost his capacity to ship more troops and equipment to Europe – as well as the ability to bring the forces already there back home. This, combined with the effects of nuclear strikes on most electronic communication, means that the US forces in Europe are stranded there for the foreseeable future."
This means there have been no new supplies or troops since '98. Many units have been at war since before that as well.

It's fair to say that quite a lot of that stuff you've listed would have gotten lost or broken during those 3 years of fighting, and since there's no new supplies coming in, you'd have to scrounge for replacements.

That said, I personally plan on implementing a random table of misc. stuff that the players get to roll on to see what stuff they *haven't* lost over the years (or managed to scavenge replacements for).
 
paladin2019
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon 07 Dec 2020, 09:16

Re: Player Starting Money

Sat 20 Nov 2021, 21:39

I am impressed that none of that has broken or gotten lost in the last 2-3 years that you've been waging war without supply lines at all.

What people seem to forget about this game is that it wasn't like the players got sent fresh from the states with full gear into Operation Reset and then ran away after a few minutes of battle.

The players have been at war for 2-3 years at this point, with pretty much zero supply lines.
Nothing is being forgotten and the war hasn't been waged with no supply lines from the beginning. (The level of supply prepositioned in Europe is...extensive. Rearming every Bradley with a M40 was not only in the realm of possibility, it was a planned action.) There is just an inherent disconnect in the lack of basic kit that is stored in the basic kit that's present.

You're an E8, what do you do with a dead soldier? You take his issued kit (at least) and disburse or store it as needed. What do you evac a casualty with? Certainly not his weapons, ammo, and other mission essential equipment. The idea that these things have been "lost" or "damaged" to the point of zero availability is nonsensical; my woobie is my best friend and I ain't letting it go.

As mentioned, this is the age of the bayonet. Everyone on the MTOE, regardless of weapon, has a bayonet in the arms room (whether they are drawn is another matter). Again, Bob gets hit, his M60, pistol, and bayonet don't leave with him. Some stuff is effectively useless; folks may be carrying gas masks out of habit but with no serviceable filters, so they effectively lack a mask. But to say the density of compasses (on your kit or in your pocket), e-tools, (kit or ruck), and sleeping bags (or blankets) and thermal fatigues* (in your ruck) is near nil (unless you break down a reload, something that seems supported by RAW) is a disconnect.
(Sidenotes. 1)We may be off-base on how thermal thermal fatigues are meant to be. They may be a Sweden-only type thing; Michelin-man or full bear suits with overwhites, for example. 2)Given the Rel 1 of a compass, the base assumption may be they're all borked from the EMP of nuclear attacks. That's at least an "explanation"....)

As for magazines, the game, interestingly, seems to ignore them or assume they are part of a reload; It's perfectly rational to assume that regardless of how much ammo you have for your rifle that the 1d6 reloads you started with is the number of usable magazines you still have (they are meant to be disposable).
 
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ottarrus
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri 15 Oct 2021, 14:11
Location: Tacoma WA

Re: Player Starting Money

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 02:33

I agree that the level of pre-positioned gear at POMCUS sites is extensive, but there hasn't been a logistician or supply sergeant yet that's accurately predicted how many of the '4Bs' [ bullets, boots, beans, and bandages] a given war is gonna call for. Other than 'a lot more than we got' anyway... Wars are forest fires or riots... they seem to take on a life of their own and they consume man and machine like a pack of starving dogs.

Something else to consider is what we were always told in Germany back in the day... If the US is even one day late in getting REFORGER off the dime, everything in the POMCUS sites will probably be nuked, and what isn't nuked will be gassed with multiple persistent agents. REFORGER only works if NCA orders it BEFORE shit kicks off. As in the two World Wars before it, War Three will utterly depend on who controls the North Atlantic convoy routes because the POMCUS supplies will probably be entirely consumed in defensive actions. Any offensive action will have to be supplied from from North American sources.

And the T2K scenarios we've all been playing assumes that the NATO's fleets and the Red Banner Northern Fleet [and its Med Squadron] beat each other to death and that perhaps half the estimated supplies slated for Europe got to its destination, no more.

All this tells me that the troops of the 5th ID[M] have what was in their duffel bags when they got to Europe and maybe a little bit more. They're probably not quite at the point of stealing uniforms off the dead to wear, but it's very, very close. They're definitely reusing boots, which is creepy enough in an 'All Quiet On The Western Front' kind of way.
 
AEB
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat 19 Sep 2020, 06:01

Re: Player Starting Money

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 04:31

The first Gulf War demonstrated that consumption of all supplies in wartime outstripped what had been planned by a considerable margin. While Operation Iraqi Freedom had 60 days of supplies stockpiled prior to the invasion supply problems rapidly accelerated during the advance.

Tanks, IFVs and APCs moved on their tracks far more than planned and rapidly ran out of track and suspension parts for maintenence.

Civillian contractors were a major part of getting material into theatre but issues in communication meant that many of the containers were effectively lost even though they had been delivered.

The speed of the advance, the inability to use good roads and traffic problems lead to the supply columns being unable to support the spearhead units.

Equipment lost, broken or withdrawn for repair - in particular electronic and computerised equipment - overwhelmed the ability to field replacements as required.

And all this in an operation where the Coalition forces had complete domination on land, sea and air.

Now imagine the same but in a WW3 scenario. The civillian link in the supply chain will degrade once the nuclear strikes start. The lost of shipping and more importantly the ability to escort vunerable merchant ships would have a major impact of bring in material from overseas. Add in fighting an enemy far more capable of inflicting material losses plus the intensity of operations and it is easy to see how quickly supply would become an issue for all sides in the conflict.
 
Oddball_E8
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: Player Starting Money

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 08:21

I am impressed that none of that has broken or gotten lost in the last 2-3 years that you've been waging war without supply lines at all.

What people seem to forget about this game is that it wasn't like the players got sent fresh from the states with full gear into Operation Reset and then ran away after a few minutes of battle.

The players have been at war for 2-3 years at this point, with pretty much zero supply lines.
Nothing is being forgotten and the war hasn't been waged with no supply lines from the beginning. (The level of supply prepositioned in Europe is...extensive. Rearming every Bradley with a M40 was not only in the realm of possibility, it was a planned action.) There is just an inherent disconnect in the lack of basic kit that is stored in the basic kit that's present.

You're an E8, what do you do with a dead soldier? You take his issued kit (at least) and disburse or store it as needed. What do you evac a casualty with? Certainly not his weapons, ammo, and other mission essential equipment. The idea that these things have been "lost" or "damaged" to the point of zero availability is nonsensical; my woobie is my best friend and I ain't letting it go.

As mentioned, this is the age of the bayonet. Everyone on the MTOE, regardless of weapon, has a bayonet in the arms room (whether they are drawn is another matter). Again, Bob gets hit, his M60, pistol, and bayonet don't leave with him. Some stuff is effectively useless; folks may be carrying gas masks out of habit but with no serviceable filters, so they effectively lack a mask. But to say the density of compasses (on your kit or in your pocket), e-tools, (kit or ruck), and sleeping bags (or blankets) and thermal fatigues* (in your ruck) is near nil (unless you break down a reload, something that seems supported by RAW) is a disconnect.
(Sidenotes. 1)We may be off-base on how thermal thermal fatigues are meant to be. They may be a Sweden-only type thing; Michelin-man or full bear suits with overwhites, for example. 2)Given the Rel 1 of a compass, the base assumption may be they're all borked from the EMP of nuclear attacks. That's at least an "explanation"....)

As for magazines, the game, interestingly, seems to ignore them or assume they are part of a reload; It's perfectly rational to assume that regardless of how much ammo you have for your rifle that the 1d6 reloads you started with is the number of usable magazines you still have (they are meant to be disposable).
You have an interestingly positive outlook on military planning.

Supply depots and supply lines would be a priority target at the start of the war. (and the Soviets knew most of them. Especially in Sweden.)
One year after the war started, the supply lines from the states were cut off, so the only thing you'd have to rely on were those supply depots.
And i highly doubt that they were stocked for an all out war lasting 3 years.
That was not in any plans.
And yes, you don't evac with full kit, but hell, you don't get much useful off someone who's been hit by arty, bombs or a nuke.

I'm kinda thinking you live in a weird dream world where nothing breaks and even when people are shot/killed/bombed/nuked, all their kit is reusable. And they all get evac'd because for some reason you're never in a full retreat or get overrun by the enemy.

I do agree that the starting kit is way too limited and, like I said, I personally intend on letting the players roll on a list of misc. items from a normal kit like e-tools, bayonets, gas masks and the like, to see what they've still "got left in working order" from their original kit.

But to say that everyone should have their entire kit intact after 3 years of warfare without working supply lines for the vast majority of that time is... an odd choice.

PS. I'm not an E8. My online name is something I picked in the '90's when I was a kid. It's from Kelly's heroes with an added E8 for the easy eight sherman they're supposed to be driving (I know it's an M4A3E4 in the movie, but they're supposed to represent M4A3E8's. And yes, I know the E8 designation wasn't really used, but still.)
 
paladin2019
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon 07 Dec 2020, 09:16

Re: Player Starting Money

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 12:35

I'm kinda thinking you live in a weird dream world where nothing breaks and even when people are shot/killed/bombed
Don't continue down this path. Just don't.
But to say that everyone should have their entire kit intact after 3 years of warfare without working supply lines for the vast majority of that time is... an odd choice.
I never said that. I stated the things that should still be present and usable. The items I mentioned are far short of "their entire kit."
 
Shroud
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun 21 Nov 2021, 03:42
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
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Re: Player Starting Money

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 12:48

Things wear out, break or get stolen. I am starting them with the gear as rolled. If they want to trade off belts of Saw Ammunition, do it.
Better hurry, Command has come on the Net with Their final Transmission. "You are on your own."

Here comes the Russian tank army. They are 5 KM north, advancing overland. They might hit the outskirts of the City with Mechanized recon units in 10 minutes.20 minutes, tops.
Is your Truck / HMMVW already packed, and ready to go?

What is important? Grab that, and get out of dodge.
DM_Shroud- Sailor, Gamer, Author, Mensan
Professional RPG Referee - https://startplaying.games/gm/dm-shroud-roll20
My Authors Blog: https://theaurincluster.blogspot.com/
Digital Moon Books - https://www.digitalmoonbooks.com/
 
Oddball_E8
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: Player Starting Money

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 16:36

I'm kinda thinking you live in a weird dream world where nothing breaks and even when people are shot/killed/bombed
Don't continue down this path. Just don't.
You're the one who brought up evacs and dead soldiers.
But to say that everyone should have their entire kit intact after 3 years of warfare without working supply lines for the vast majority of that time is... an odd choice.
I never said that. I stated the things that should still be present and usable. The items I mentioned are far short of "their entire kit."
You're essentially saying that everyone should start with a full kit.
You've said it repeatedly.
Yes, it's not "their entire kit", but we're listing essential items here, not extra pairs of socks.

The players have been at war for years. Constant war with broken supply lines. And yet you say that they should have pretty much everything from the kit they were issued with at deployment.
It just doesn't make any sense, mate.

Things break. Things get lost in the heat of battle. Things don't get replaced when the supply is gone.

And like I said earlier, I don't think the list in the game is good enough. But I also don't think they should start with a full kit.
 
Oddball_E8
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: Player Starting Money

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 17:14

Since I made a new thread about it, I actually sat down and listed what *every* soldier gets in their starting equipment for the game.

Here's the list:
Uniform (ie. Fatigues).
Canteen (could be plural, each water ration could be a canteen or a plastic bottle).*
Personal Weapon (usually an AR of some sort).
D6 reloads (ie. Magazines).
Flak Jacket.
4 out of 5 gets a Helmet (Officers don't, but that makes no sense).
Knife or D6 Hand Grenades (Referee could easily say and instead of or here... I sure will. And that knife will count as a bayonet in my game).
Personal Medkit.
Backpack.
MRE's (well, they get food rations. Could be MRE's, could be food they scrounged up).*

*Interestingly enough, the designers seem to have forgotten rations for the lifepath creation and only included them in the archetype listings. But since all archetypes get 1D6 of each, I'll just assume that's what lifepath creation gets too.

What's missing that others have listed here are these:
Compass
Flashlight
Gasmask
MOPP (If issued)
Raingear
Sleeping Bag
E-tools **
Weapon Cleaning Kit **
Thermal Fatigues
Web Gear**

The Referee could easily just hand these out as he sees fit, but I'll personally make the players roll on a list for fun.

**Interestingly, despite some making a big fuss about these, they're not actually listed anywhere in the game and serve no function rules-wize, but I'll personally include web-gear in "uniform".

All-in-all, I'd say that it's not that much missing and it's not unreasonable to assume that some of that stuff would break and not be replaced ruing the last 2 years without supply lines. And much of the stuff that people have made a big fuss about aren't even represented in the rules of the game and not listed as equipment anywhere, but hey, you play the game you want to play. If you want your soldiers to be fresh out of deployment, so be it.
 
paladin2019
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon 07 Dec 2020, 09:16

Re: Player Starting Money

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 19:07

You're the one who brought up evacs and dead soldiers.
And you said I live in a dream world about them. My response was far more civil than that deserved.
You're essentially saying that everyone should start with a full kit.
You've said it repeatedly.
Based on what you suggest as a full kit, I haven't. I'm arguing for one or two, and easier access to a third, items on your list.
Is your Truck / HMMVW already packed, and ready to go?
Always. It's called load plans and discipline. You're done using something, you re-pack immediately.

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