ErikModi
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed 08 Dec 2021, 16:27

Re: Scale different between spacecraft and vehicles and characters

Thu 09 Dec 2021, 06:50

I actually just read this part!

For spaceships, the rule is that the scales are so different, spaceships can't target characters, and presumably character weapons can't really damage starships (except from the inside using the explosive decompression rules).

Vehicles are still the sticky widget. Apparently, the 20mm cannons on the Cheyenne do the same damage as the pulse rifle the marines in it carry in their hands? If vehicle weapons are on the same scale as characters, does that mean starships can't target vehicles, thus a Cheyenne can harass a Conestoga and 'Stoga can't shoot back? Are even the Cheyenne's missiles ineffective against a starship's armor? Can an Alien claw its way through an APC's armored hull to get at the tasty marines inside?
 
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ExileInParadise
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Re: Scale different between spacecraft and vehicles and characters

Fri 10 Dec 2021, 15:38

Apparently, the 20mm cannons on the Cheyenne do the same damage as the pulse rifle the marines in it carry in their hands?
If this sort of conflict only happens once in a blue moon,
Personally, I'd ride right past this and just focus on "story and effects" rather than simulation rules.
And, I'd probably scale the Cheyenne cannon to be at least a smartgun / robot sentry worth of damage rather than pulse rifle.
If vehicle weapons are on the same scale as characters, does that mean starships can't target vehicles, thus a Cheyenne can harass a Conestoga and 'Stoga can't shoot back?
Two different cases here - in space and in atmosphere.
In space, the frigate should have the advantage.
In atmosphere (such as when we see the Patna landing in ALIEN3) the Cheyenne should have the advantage.
And even if there's no "rule as written" on when/where vehicle to vehicle combat works - common sense should still apply.
In both regimes - both vehicles can target and shoot each other - there's no magical force or law of nature that prevents it.
But, you can handwave lots by just having the sides miss or not, etc.
A Cheyenne does damage - but very little due to difference in scale.

One system that I very much like for this is that when scales or so different - damage to the larger scale object is done to "subsystems" rather than overall.
A Cheyenne shoots up one landing bay ... that system is down... the rest of the ship carries on.
Are even the Cheyenne's missiles ineffective against a starship's armor?
Personally, I'd rule that starships are aerospace vehicles and very, very vulnerable to damage.
"Armor" on an aerospace vehicle isn't like a 20th century wet navy battleship.
It's more like "hardening" specific areas or subsystems.
Overall the entire vehicle is still extremely vulnerable to interference with given areas of the ship.
Shoot it - you hit a wiring conduit - is that armored against missiles?
As Rocket Cat says: in space, every gram counts - you can't just carry meters thick slabs of armor and expect the ship to still be able to move...
Can an Alien claw its way through an APC's armored hull to get at the tasty marines inside?
Yes - given the scenes in ALIENS where they ripped through barricades, and even welded shut doors.
They are smart enough to find weaknesses and exploit them, including just ripping the door open.
Plus, players should never feel "safe" - an APC isn't a panic room.
Its a vehicle armored against flak and shrapnel and such - but its still but soft spots... somewhere... like those windows or that big sliding door...
We live, as we dream -- alone. ~ Joseph Conrad
 
ErikModi
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed 08 Dec 2021, 16:27

Re: Scale different between spacecraft and vehicles and characters

Fri 10 Dec 2021, 17:07


As Rocket Cat says: in space, every gram counts - you can't just carry meters thick slabs of armor and expect the ship to still be able to move...
Nice to see a fellow Atomic Rockets fan.
 
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Angelman
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Re: Scale different between spacecraft and vehicles and characters

Thu 23 Jun 2022, 10:08

This came up in our game last night, when the PC marines fired pulse rifles at an UPP Accipiter dropship. We agreed that, since the roles could easily be reversed, that there should be some sort of power level difference between vehicles and characters, but I didn't want to make an entire thing out of it -- rescaling everything and redesigning the rules -- so I came up with the following quick-fix that can be slapped right on top of the existing rules.



SLIDING ARMOR PENETRATION BY SCALE

Character scale weapons
Armor Piercing Weapons (pulse rifles, for instance): Lose Armor Piercing against vehicles.
Ordinary non-piercing Weapons (pistols and the like): Gains Armor Doubling against vehicles.
Armor Doubling Weapons (shotguns etc.): Gains Armor Doubling twice (i.e., Armor Quadruling) against vehicles.
Fire Intensity Weapons & Heavy Weapons (heavy pulse rifles/smart guns/RPG launchers, etc.): No change/no nerfing.

Vehicle scale weapons
Armor Piercing Weapons (gatling guns, for instance): Gain Armor Piercing twice (i.e., Armor Quartering) against characters.
Ordinary non-piercing Weapons (multi-directional flame units*, etc): Gain Armor Piercing against characters.
Armor Doubling Weapons (AFAIK, no such vehicle weapon exist, but if it did): Lose Armor Doubling against characters.
*Not so sure about this one, to be honest, as flames are flames, but I couldn't think of another non-Armor Piercing vehicle weapon. In short, these rules simply just halves character armor again for most vehicle weapon (i.e., cannons etc. with the Armor Piercing quality) attacks, as the gun chews through flesh, terrain, and kevlar, and is an easy rules graft to remember on the fly.
"And the rain sets in,
it's the Angelman.
I'm deranged".
--David Bowie, I'm Deranged

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