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Voronwe
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Concerning 2nd Edition cultures...

Fri 28 Aug 2020, 19:07

Sooo... I’d like to comment on some aspects of cultures presented in the upcoming TOR edition, hoping as usual to get to something positive and useful for Francesco & Co to consider. Basically:

The Six Starting Cultures: so Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Men of Bree, Rangers & Bardings.
- Elves: Elves of the Grey Havens. Excellent! Lots of people expecting them to get proper attention for decades in Middle-Earth RPGs. (i) Fascinating culture, (ii) living in the borders of Eriador for thousands of years, (iii) well-known for helping their neighbors through the ages; (4) comprised of mixed Elven peoples who had become a coherent culture and keep at TA 2960 only a few Noldor from Aman (genuine Calaquendi), far from being enough to raise the problem of advanced cultures as in the case of Rivendell Elves. They should be very special, tough, in a similar way to what I comment below on Rangers/Dúnedain of the North.
- Dwarves: as we are told to expect strong continuity with 1st Ed TOR, they should be the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains introduced in 1st Ed TOR “Adventurers’ Companion”. They are very peculiar Dwarves, tough, rather different from the other (more warlike) Dwarven races of 1st Ed TOR. Perhaps there would be room (i.e. game rules) for “visiting” Dwarves of Erebor?
- Hobbits: the well known and loved Hobbits of the Shire (& Bree) of 1st Ed TOR. Nothing special to say.
- Men of Bree: the well known and loved Men (& Hobbits) of Bree of 1st Ed TOR. Nothing special to say.
- Rangers: OK, OK, no more rants about that... No more complaining from me about Dúnedain of the North as a starting culture... in Eriador they fit in a reasonable way as they are native to the land. Anyway, I would humbly suggest to keep them really special in game terms, with advantages in Basic Attributes and Skill Scores over the rest of mortal cultures, counterbalanced by drawbacks (restrictions in Hope, Shadow, Eye of Sauron rule, traits like Enemy of Sauron)... I’ll start another (specific) thread for this (balance among cultures) later.
- Bardings: here I go: I can’t find lore grounds for this culture in 2960 Eriador... Real life marketing reasons? Getting another Mannish culture (three as in 1st Ed TOR) and choosing the most (let’s say) standard Fantasy Mannish culture? Perhaps I’m wrong and there are lines in the LotR books that put Bardings in the Shire/Eriador... Otherwise, in terms of lore the already introduced Dunlendings fit better in this slot: (1) Dunland is technically in Eriador (or at least is a borderland) and (2) people of Dunnish blood were not unheard of in Bree and probably also lived in farmsteads and roamed the empty lands of former Cardolan and Lone Lands as shepherds.

Of course, there are other peoples in Eriador and its borderlands mentioned in LotR books: Lossoth of Forochel, Wild Men (Woses?) of Eryn Vorn... but they are probably not suitable as starting cultures in the game... perhaps we’ll see them in future TOR books...
 
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Falenthal
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Re: Concerning 2nd Edition cultures...

Fri 28 Aug 2020, 20:59

Of course Bardings looks like a compromise to have a "normal" Mannish culture, a middle-ground between the High Men (Rangers) and the low profile Bree-men. I don't find them incoherent, though, given their tight connection with the dwarves of the Lonely Mountain and how we know that dwarven traders go repeatedly from Erebor to the Blue Mountains. It wouldn't feel strange for a dwarven caravan to take a Barding apprentice or two along, or some Barding artisans with work of their own to sell, Or even as bodyguards, cart drivers or, simply, adventurer's sharing the road.

On the other hand, I could also have seen fit the inclusion of gondorians of the south. Given their sailor background, it would make sense for them to travel by ship once in a while to the northern coastline: as expeditions to contact their brethen of the north (the Rangers), to scout the old dúnedain settlements of Arnor, to trade with the elves of the Grey Havens or the trappers along the Gwathló river (which is navigable), etc. If such coastline gondorians and the elves of the Grey Havens were included, it would open a very interesting option for sea adventures in TOR.
Oh, and you've heard the rumors about those rare hobbits that Gandalf took to see the Blue, right? They DIDN'T embark on a elven ship alongside sailors from Dol Amroth, RIGHT??!!
 
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Re: Concerning 2nd Edition cultures...

Fri 28 Aug 2020, 22:51

There are still the High Elves of Rivendell; I seem to recall Francesco previously indicating that the Advanced Cultures might be getting something of a rethink. Or am I imagining that? I would expect Dunlendings to venture into Enedwaith to hunt and fish. I'm not sure if the Greenway is traveled enough in T.A. 2960 to make banditry along that road worthwhile, though the ford at Tharbad would be a natural spot for an ambush.

I imagine that we could get a special rule or three concerning the three sub-races of Hobbit (Harfoots, Stoors and Fallohides).
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Dunheved
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Re: Concerning 2nd Edition cultures...

Sat 29 Aug 2020, 00:12

This is a really good thread to kick into action. Nice one.
So, good point about the Elves of the Grey Havens being the only truly new culture compared to TOR 1e. I am no great Tolkien Scholar so I look forward to this.
I think I agree with the comments on the people of Bree and the Hobbits of the Shire, it would be a sensible effort to make these cultures a seamless transition from the original cultures in TOR 1e and in the AC book.
By the same standard the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains might get more of a backstory to help us understand their particular cultural strengths and weaknesses, while pointing the way to players of other dwarven cultures: how might the Dwarves of Erebor / Iron Hills / Grey Mts move from TOR 1e to TOR 2e. This appears to me to be a really smart move to help us all link the old TOR 1e to the 2e model.

Now for the remaining two new introductory cultures: Dale (Bardings) and Dunedain.

Bardings first. I have to remember that when TOR1e arrived, we sort of HAD to have Hobbits in the game: I mean Tolkien without Hobbits? But whenever I read the slipcase version of the six cultures, I did sort of feel how artificial the Hobbits were when the original (original) setting was Wilderland. There just weren't any real Shire hobbits other than Bilbo east of the misty mountains: hobbits could only be introduced as very rare adventurous types, by JUST POSSIBLY stretching the canon a bit.
BUT in gaming terms: adding Hobbits was fundamental. They had to be there.
My point? Placing Bardings into Eriador is the parallel move for the new edition. In terms of canon: they ought to be as rare as hen's teeth - but in gaming terms? It will allow a player to take on the character of an explorer; it is fundamentally wonderful to have at least one totally 'outside culture' to consider. [Frankly, it might have made more sense to have Woodmen travelling across the mountains: but I still want Bardings. Woodmen are too subtle. Bardings are the brash adventurers who would cross the mountains (and go to Dorwinion, and to Gondor or beyond).]

Then we come to the Dunedain. As far as I can tell I would not want to play a Dunedain in TOR1e. They are given a miniscule edge to start with and advancing seems deliberately retarded. Now, to be fair, I have NOT even attempted to play a Dunedain in anything: so I am likely to be talking without any real experience here - in which case I apologise for being arrogant. But a really advanced culture? The remnant of the Faithful - not the degenerates who worshipped Sauron in Numenor ? These are meant to be the epitome of Duty and of Resilience. They are the Great.
So yes, of course they should be an advanced culture.
But are the Dunedain in TOR 1e an advanced culture: really? They look to me like a hobbled culture, only given a marginal head start in TOR 1e. {Like Voronwe I really need another thread to take this issue on. }
Of course they should be in at the start of TOR 2e. They are a unique culture, specific to the North like the Dunedain of Minas Tirith are unique to the South. Can they please be treated as something special. With great cultural advantages, but also with restrictions on behaviour that reflect those cultures. (e.g. higher attributes overall, but only permit favoured attributes to apply to the Common Skills, but there must be loads more variations).
Sorry its long.
 
Dunheved
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Re: Concerning 2nd Edition cultures...

Sat 29 Aug 2020, 00:14

Oh yeah - ditto three subcultures for the hobbits - good point O -S!
 
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Voronwe
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Re: Concerning 2nd Edition cultures...

Sat 29 Aug 2020, 00:22

There are still the High Elves of Rivendell; I seem to recall Francesco previously indicating that the Advanced Cultures might be getting something of a rethink. Or am I imagining that?
No, it’s right, Francesco stated that in another thread of this forum some weeks ago. He (they) seems to have decided to remove the advanced cultures from the game as such, with the possible exception of the High Elves of Rivendell.

In the end and as far as the starting set and the core book are concerned, this means he (they) has decided to put the Rangers of the North among the “standard cultures” (as we all are assuming that the Elves that will appear in the 2nd Edition core book will be the Elves of the Grey Havens -introduced as another “standard culture”- and not the High Elves of Rivendell).

This doesn’t necessarily mean that the Rangers of the North (and the Elves of the Grey Havens, I hope too) meet the same standards in character attributes and skill points (and balancing restrictions/special rules) than the rest of the standard cultures... I’ll open another thread to comment specifically on that.
 
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Valarian
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Re: Concerning 2nd Edition cultures...

Sun 11 Oct 2020, 15:30

I think it'd be good if the Elves for the 2nd edition corebook are based on the elves of the wandering companies, rather than Grey Havens or Rivendell. Sindarin rather than Noldor. They'd be fairly similar to the wood elves and not as high-powered as Grey Haven/Rivendell elves would be.
 
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Re: Concerning 2nd Edition cultures...

Sun 11 Oct 2020, 15:41

I think it'd be good if the Elves for the 2nd edition corebook are based on the elves of the wandering companies, rather than Grey Havens or Rivendell. Sindarin rather than Noldor. They'd be fairly similar to the wood elves and not as high-powered as Grey Haven/Rivendell elves would be.
.
Aren't the wandering companies of Elves in Eriador all based in Rivendell (and perhaps the Grey Havens and Lindon) anyway? Gildor Inglorion was of the House of Elrond.
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bveld
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Re: Concerning 2nd Edition cultures...

Sun 11 Oct 2020, 18:28

I just want to say that I very much support the idea of including Dunlendings as a starting culture in 2e. It just makes a lot of sense for me, especially that there are some adventures planned in South Eriador (Tharbad).
 
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Voronwe
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Re: Concerning 2nd Edition cultures...

Mon 12 Oct 2020, 10:52

I think it'd be good if the Elves for the 2nd edition corebook are based on the elves of the wandering companies, rather than Grey Havens or Rivendell. Sindarin rather than Noldor. They'd be fairly similar to the wood elves and not as high-powered as Grey Haven/Rivendell elves would be.
Wandering companies presented in TLotR such as Gildor’s are precisely the most powerful kind of Elves remaining in Middle-Earth: the Exiles, Noldor Calaquendi, who had seen the light of Aman and came to Middle-Earth with Fëanor or Fingolfin.

They are not Sindar at all.

Elves of the Grey Havens, on the contrary, are in a significant measure racially and culturally Sindarin (remnants of the people of Doriath and the Falathrim of Círdan).

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