Fria Ligans forum

Re-reading the skills section of the preview I was struck by a certain passage in the "Using Darkness Points" part on page 6...

A DARK MIND – A PC is suddenly stricken with a temporary dark madness. More details in Chapter XX. Costs 1-3 DP.

... so characters can have temporary, what... possession, nervous breakdowns, stress. "Dark Madness" seems to imply that it's a bit more than getting all worked up after a real bad day.

And from a campaign viewpoint, is such "Dark Madness" something that is becoming more and more noticeable in the population? Or is it something that just dogs the adventurous types? I'm reminded by a curious statement in the Kickstarter intro about the time the Icons had left mankind and "The Darkness was in every man and woman..."

Well, when the game "begins" mystic powers is on the rise. Not sure if they were completely unheard of before, but if you play a mystic the idea is* that you have quite recently manifested your powers.

My guess is that all these portents and omens foreshadow the events of The Grace of the Icons campaign... so you're probably right, whatever you're thinking!


*) or at least was, in Järnringen's edition. Obviously Free League could have changed things around; it's their universe now!

Again I yearn for that timeline.

"How many years ago has it become evident that prayer has a direct, measurable, scientifically proven positive influence on success chances?"
"At what point in time has the first mystic "miracle" occurred?"

Again I yearn for that timeline.

"How many years ago has it become evident that prayer has a direct, measurable, scientifically proven positive influence on success chances?"
"At what point in time has the first mystic "miracle" occurred?"

You know... timeline aside that's a DAMM evocative point you got there Vainamoinen. If the intervention of a higher power were to become a scientifically quantifiable matter, to the point that it's as acceptable as any other complex scientific matter... is it still faith? If a miracle is reproducible and accepted is it as acceptable as belief without question or does it still raise hackles among the devout? There's mention that the Icons were known even before the Third Horizon... I wonder if a debate over how to view there acts (but not wether or not they actually exist) was a principal factor in the division that lead to The Portal Wars... wouldn't be the first time man thought the best way to venerate the divine was to beat the snot out of his neighbor.

Definitely putting this into my GM notes!

An emphatic no.

Remember, faith means strong belief without proof.

That is, the crucial part, that defines the term, is "without proof". You can't have faith when you have proof.

For instance, you shouldn't call it "faith" in D&Ds Forgotten Realms, because you have indubitable, irrefutable, impregnable evidence of the gods' existence in that world.

And it is lessened by it.

Please note that even in a overwhelmingly scientific fiction game, one that really focuses on the "sci" in scifi, you can still have faith without that being a contradiction in terms.

I'm no religious person myself, but I sure see the literary value in retaining elements of faith in my stories. If for no other reasons that it resonates so fundamentally if what makes us human.

So please don't ruin the mystery by explaining it.

So please don't ruin the mystery by explaining it.

So, no Mercy of the Icons campaign for you? Me too.

But I do also think that of course you should call it faith in Coriolis, and it is! Because while effects of prayer may be scientifically quantifiable, whatever causes those effects remains shrouded in absolute mystery. People think it's the Icons, but that may or may not be true, so it's even still blind faith. From a strictly logical standpoint, the people of the Third Horizon could still commit the greatest Appeal to Ignorance the galaxy has ever seen. Quite opposed to anything Forgotten Realms or Dark Eye, there's no actual proof for the Icons' existence.

It's certainly an interesting angle that Coriolis is taking here, and it deserves to be honored for what it is. Prayer works, which makes religion practically universal. That's the situation. Scientists can measure effect, write big books about their empirical evidence, but they still haven't the foggiest where it's all coming from. They can not prove or disprove anything. The Icon religion could still be, for better or worse, a load of ethereal Djinn shit.

And I love it! Not the Djinn shit, of course.

An emphatic no.

Remember, faith means strong belief without proof.

That is, the crucial part, that defines the term, is "without proof". You can't have faith when you have proof.

For instance, you shouldn't call it "faith" in D&Ds Forgotten Realms, because you have indubitable, irrefutable, impregnable evidence of the gods' existence in that world.

And it is lessened by it.

Please note that even in a overwhelmingly scientific fiction game, one that really focuses on the "sci" in scifi, you can still have faith without that being a contradiction in terms.

I'm no religious person myself, but I sure see the literary value in retaining elements of faith in my stories. If for no other reasons that it resonates so fundamentally if what makes us human.

So please don't ruin the mystery by explaining it.

Oh and I agree 100%. I guess what I was getting at was it would be interesting to see something like that crop up, something that isn't just disbelief but another take that takes people (in particular a group like the Third Horizon) off-balance. Sort of like what Spiritualism was during the Victorian era.

You could also argue how common this really is. The PCs are able to call on the Icons whenever they wish, but for everyone else it is more haphazard (the need to spend Darkness Points in game terms). The Horizon would be a strange(r) place if everyone has a greater chance of success at what they do, but with the drawback of the Dark between the stars (the weird things would be far more common than they are), so I interpret these rules and the way the Horizon is described that prayer doesn't work all the time for everyone. Do the PCs have the eyes of the Icons on them? Are they even blessed by them? For the general population faith can be faith that the Icons will help them this time, when they haven't before. And as Vainamoinen says, is it even the Icons that respond to the prayers?

You could also argue how common this really is. The PCs are able to call on the Icons whenever they wish, but for everyone else it is more haphazard (the need to spend Darkness Points in game terms). The Horizon would be a strange(r) place if everyone has a greater chance of success at what they do, but with the drawback of the Dark between the stars (the weird things would be far more common than they are), so I interpret these rules and the way the Horizon is described that prayer doesn't work all the time for everyone. Do the PCs have the eyes of the Icons on them? Are they even blessed by them? For the general population faith can be faith that the Icons will help them this time, when they haven't before. And as Vainamoinen says, is it even the Icons that respond to the prayers?

...that or maybe the answer sometimes is simply "no". I'm also wondering at times, given that it's serving as a balancing force, if the Darkness is really "evil" or is it more of a cosmic bookkeeper balancing out all things in the end? Or if it really even exists... or is it actually that one or all of the Icons doing merely because they feel that you HAVE to take the good with the bad?

Does seem to be something going on, "dark mind", Mystics, deeper questions... maybe there's a "things man was not meant to know" factor involved and people are becoming more and more susceptible to the weirdness simply because they're deliberately seeking it out...

...heady stuff indeed!

Guess this is a minor point, but here goes anyways:

To me, something as a Fireball is "scientifically quantifiable". Or, I guess, a Hold Person (since D&D Clerics don't get Fireball).

To me, something as ephemereal as a reroll isn't. Short of setting up a scientific study and experimenting in-game (which no rpg ruleset was ever designed to support) it's exceedingly easy to simply attribute the effects of your prayers to luck; meaning that any claim "it was the Icons that helped me" can't be proved or disproved.

Hence faith.

Note how Coriolis stays away from having its Mystical Talents manifest things that are "scientifically quantifiable" (very roughly speaking; I immediately concede it's not as easy as that. But compared to D&D spells granted by your deity, it sure is subtle. I'l happily settle for subtle )