Fria Ligans forum

Issue:
The Signature Item rules combine two different concepts:
(1) an item being iconic / identity-defining, and
(2) total dependency on the item (attribute collapse if lost).

This works for power suits or transformative devices, but breaks for iconic weapons like Thor’s hammer or Captain America’s shield, which do not generate the hero’s attributes. Using the Drawback 'Gear Dependent' alone fixes mechanics but reduces a Signature Item to “just gear,” undermining its purpose.

Fix:
Split the Signature Item limit into two explicit types:

Item Dependent – Transformative
Use when the item creates the hero’s body or attributes (power armor, transformations).
Losing the item removes its powers and causes attribute reduction (current RAW behavior).
Also, it must be specified which Physical or Mental Attributes are affected (Tony Stark losing his Iron Man Armor won't reduce his Reason)

Item Dependent – Non-Transformative
Use for iconic weapons or relics (Mjolnir, Cap’s shield).
Losing the item removes item-based powers and bonuses, but attributes are unaffected.

This preserves Signature Items as truly iconic, keeps Thor and Cap canon-accurate, and limits attribute loss to cases where the item actually creates the hero’s capabilities.

I'm not quite following - the SIGNATURE ITEM power isn't transformative by default - it gives bonus dice to rolls for a chosen attribute but doesn't increase the attribute itself.

Captain America's shield could be conceived as getting bonus dice to the FIGHTING attribute while associating powers like PROTECTION and STRIKE to it. Mjolnir could also provide bonus dice to FIGHTING since it's a weapon, but then have associated powers like FLIGHT and WEATHER CONTROL.

The Item Dependent limit is there to simulate circumstances where the item is actually transformative (such as Kid Thor's hammer or Knockout's boxing gloves) while still giving a bonus to rolls for an appropriate attribute.

I'm not quite following - the SIGNATURE ITEM power isn't transformative by default - it gives bonus dice to rolls for a chosen attribute but doesn't increase the attribute itself.

Captain America's shield could be conceived as getting bonus dice to the FIGHTING attribute while associating powers like PROTECTION and STRIKE to it. Mjolnir could also provide bonus dice to FIGHTING since it's a weapon, but then have associated powers like FLIGHT and WEATHER CONTROL.

The Item Dependent limit is there to simulate circumstances where the item is actually transformative (such as Kid Thor's hammer or Knockout's boxing gloves) while still giving a bonus to rolls for an appropriate attribute.

Signature Item is not transformative, but the Limit: Item Dependant is, and you need that Limit if you have powers attached to it and it can be lost/dropped/taken away. Let's assume Cap has two Power Sources (which is rules legal) and they are Power Source: Super Soldier Serum and Vibranium Shield.

To use your own example: Captain America's shield as a Signature Item has +2 bonus dice to the FIGHTING attribute, and the PROTECTION and STRIKE powers. Cap would lose the PROTECTION and STRIKE powers if he dropped the shield or lost it. Therefore, it MUST have the Item Dependent Limit. The Item Dependant limit states (page 66):

"All of your powers from one power source (in this case Vibranium Shield) must be assigned to your signature item (his shield). If you lose the item, you lose access to all powers from that power source and your highest three attribute scores (choose in case of a tie) are reduced to a joint total of 8, and none of them can exceed a score of 4. Note down your reduced attribute scores in parenthesis.

So, with the Limit as written, Cap loses his three highest Attributes if he drops his shield.

However,there is another issue with this: If it were Tony Stark, then it's possible that one of his highest Attributes might be Reason, in which case he would have to reduce it under these rules. In his case, only his physical attributes should be affected. (FAS)

The rules will need to specify a choice of either physical Attributes (Power Armor) or mental ones.

Signature Item (Item Dependent) – Attribute reduction issue

Issue:
The Item Dependent limit for Signature Item reduces a hero’s three highest attributes if the item is lost. This works for characters whose attributes are entirely item-derived, but it breaks for characters like Iron Man, whose Reason (genius-level intellect) is intrinsic and should not be reduced when the armor is unavailable.

RAW implication:

Tony Stark without his armor loses genius-level Reason
This is clearly incorrect fictionally and mechanically.

Fix / clarification:
When applying Item Dependent, only reduce attributes that are fictionally granted or enhanced by the item.
Intrinsic attributes (such as Tony Stark’s Reason) are not affected by the loss of the Signature Item.

Alternatively:

Replace “three highest attributes” with

“all attributes primarily derived from the item”

This preserves the intent of Item Dependent (severe reliance on gear) without incorrectly suppressing innate capabilities.

Signature Item is not transformative, but the Limit: Item Dependant is, and you need that Limit if you have powers attached to it and it can be lost/dropped/taken away.

This is not the case.

The power description states: "On the flipside, if your signature item is lost, taken, neutralized, destroyed, or otherwise rendered nonoperational, you lose the dice bonus as well as all powers assigned to the item until you regain access to it."

By default, the item's associated powers do not work while you don't have the item.

As I shared in the last reply, the Item Dependent limit is only there to simulate the times where the signature item is actually transformative.

Also, I see that you are mirroring posts from this thread in the Alpha Feedback thread.

There's no need to do that - we're tracking any of the feedback here. This thread to discuss this specific topic works.

Signature Item (Item Dependent) – Attribute reduction issue

Issue:
The Item Dependent limit for Signature Item reduces a hero’s three highest attributes if the item is lost. This works for characters whose attributes are entirely item-derived, but it breaks for characters like Iron Man, whose Reason (genius-level intellect) is intrinsic and should not be reduced when the armor is unavailable.

RAW implication:

Tony Stark without his armor loses genius-level Reason
This is clearly incorrect fictionally and mechanically.

This is why the SIGNATURE ITEM power is not intended for a Tony Stark-style character. That would instead be the Super Suit drawback.

This is why the SIGNATURE ITEM power is not intended for a Tony Stark-style character. That would instead be the Super Suit drawback.

Understood. My bad ! Super Suit and Item Dependant still have the issue with the 'highest three attributes' being reduced, which if in the case of the genius who invented it, means they might become dumber when they take the suit off.
Sorry for repetition, I have OCD and Autism.

This is why the SIGNATURE ITEM power is not intended for a Tony Stark-style character. That would instead be the Super Suit drawback.

Understood. My bad ! Super Suit and Item Dependant still have the issue with the 'highest three attributes' being reduced, which if in the case of the genius who invented it, means they might become dumber when they take the suit off.
Sorry for repetition, I have OCD and Autism.

No worries at all - I was only trying to save you some time!

The Super Suit drawback is the general example, but you can look to the more specifically customized drawbacks used in the character profiles that will come in chapter 8 to see how the general drawback can be tweaked to account for cases like Tony Stark (Robot's drawback is a good example of this).

Thanks!

Thank you - glad to help! Looking forward to seeing the rest of the book.