Fria Ligans forum

Some GMs report that their players push foraging or other rolls to farm willpower points (e.g. here: viewtopic.php?t=4680). Foraging can lead to mishaps, so wouldn't it be safer for the characters to arrange a long jump competition every evening? They could maintain a long jump record and try to break it before sleeping (pushing their rolls in the process). Like the sorcerer Nirmena in the examples on page 43 and 46, but why jump chasms when it is much safer to jump along the ground? Gamemasters who interpret the box on page 44 as either the character's action succeeds (the character beats the record) or the player makes a skill test (and can push the roll), will be forced to let the characters make a skill roll at some point (or the characters can keep increasing the distance and become long jump champions).

The players could also arrange other types of competitions (e.g. weight lifting or wrestling) to farm willpower point.

By the way here is the original Swedish version of the text in box on page 44. It is on page 42 in the Swedish rule book. To me its intent sounds more like advice to the players than a rule: "Det är svårt att lyckas med handlingar i Svärdets sång. Sakner du bra redskap eller vänner som hjälper dig ër risken stor att det går illa. Slå därför aldrig tärning i onödan. Spara tärningarna till dramatiska situationer eller svåra utmaninger. I andra lägen bör SL helt enkelt låta dig göra det du vill."

To me the example shows the need to either

1) invent more drawbacks to pushing
2) decide that some rolls can't be pushed
3) decide that in some cases pushing doesn't trigger any willpower.

Any suggestions of a solution? How would you handle it if your players began arranging sports competitions?

It is the GM that set the scene, then the players decides what to do and based on that, the GM decides if this requires a skill roll or not.

Not all tasks need a skill roll. If the the GM doesn't think the task meet the follow:

<> you should only roll dice when absolutely necessary, in dramatic situations or tough challenges.

Then no skill roll is needed. The GM can simply just assume that the task is successful (with one success).
Even if the GM do think that this require a skill roll, the player can't push the roll if the push doesn't do anything to the task.

I know that for some players and GMs it can be hard to not roll for everything but in Year Zero Engine games the idea is that you only roll when it is very dangerous, the scene is very dramatic and important, etc. Not for everything.

This is totally up to the GM to decide when to do what, but if the GM allow the players to roll for everything, just to farm WP no less, that is a grave he has dug himself.

To forage or hunt for food is a classic here. But is that a dramatic situation or a tough challenge? Sure it could be in some situations. If the PCs doesn't have food, then it is a life and death situation, that sounds dramatic. Hunting in an area where there is something dangerous roaming (GM discretion) can be a tough and dangerous challenge and can call for a skill roll to be made, but if the PCs have food already and the GM doesn't think that this qualify for a tough challenge, then they could still forage or hunt, but the task just counts as a normal success.

When we started out playing FbL, one of my players tried to hunt, just to get WP. The group had d10/d12 food each and they where one day from a settlement. When I told him that, he successfully hunted down a rabbit and got two more units of meat and a unit of hide. When he realized that he didn't need to roll and thus didn't had any chance to push and get WP, he didn't want to hunt anymore. I told him that if you just follow the story and go where you have planned to go, hunt when the food is low, etc. they will get WP.

Not all tasks need a skill roll. If the the GM doesn't think the task meet the follow:

<> you should only roll dice when absolutely necessary, in dramatic situations or tough challenges.

Then no skill roll is needed. The GM can simply just assume that the task is successful (with one success).

I know (as you can infer from what I wrote about "Gamemasters who interpret [...])".

If one of your characters places two sticks on the ground, three and a half meter apart, and tries to jump over the space between them, what would you do? If you decide he succeeds, he will increase the distance to four meters and try again. If you let him succeed, he will increase the distance by half a meter and try again, and he will keep doing this until ... until what? How would you stop the process?

It is the GMs job to set the scene. If the overall campaign story is based on finding four artifacts. The GM should provide clues to where to go for the players, Pelagia (settlement), Stonegarden (cave) or Amber's Peak (castle) for example (from the Raven's Purge campaign). The players then decides one of those three or even an unknown cave adventure site nearby (that the GM has to either roll up, write up or just assign one of the official ones to).

If the a player would instead of following the plot by prepping and travel to a known adventure site or an unknown one, he come up with this BS idea that he refuses to let go, I would ask him why he does that, what is the purpose. If the purpose is solely to make a skill roll and with that push it so he can get WP, then I would ask the players to do something based on the idea of the campaign. Finding the macguffin or something that moves the story forward. If he can't do that, then he might not be mature enough to play this game and I would have a discussion with that player why he does what he does.

Personally I don't have players like that, but if I did, I would have have ruled that "player A wants to goof around in a nonsens jumping exercise, what do the rest of you like to do?" If the other players actually wants to play the game and say that they travel to an adventure site, good perhaps this odd one out player can learn how to play the game by following them. If they also wants to do this nonsens jumping idiocy, then, I would cancel the game and have a discussion what to do instead of playing this game, otherwise another RPG or a board game would fit the group better.

I know that for some players and GMs it can be hard to not roll for everything but in Year Zero Engine games the idea is that you only roll when it is very dangerous, the scene is very dramatic and important, etc. Not for everything.

And the only alternative to rolling is to be successful, right? Hence all unimportant actions (such as long jump) by the characters are automatically successful. Then arises the need to forbid unimportant actions (you have to "follow the plot" and "move the story forward"). This can be done by scolding the players. It is a solution. Thanks.

I know that for some players and GMs it can be hard to not roll for everything but in Year Zero Engine games the idea is that you only roll when it is very dangerous, the scene is very dramatic and important, etc. Not for everything.

And the only alternative to rolling is to be successful, right? Hence all unimportant actions (such as long jump) by the characters are automatically successful. Then arises the need to forbid unimportant actions (you have to "follow the plot" and "move the story forward"). This can be done by scolding the players. It is a solution. Thanks.

You are bending and twisting what I try to say. Lets me make some examples.

Having a player making a long jump because he just wants to, while the rest of the group is sitting by the camp fire, is not a dramatic scene. There is no point with the long jump other than just doing it. He have the entire evening to do the long jump. If he encounter a pit trap while they are exploring an adventure site and he wants to take a look in the room on the other side, that is a dramatic scene. Could even be called a tough challenge, depending on the size of the pit. There is a reason for jumping over the pit trap, that may be the only way over to the other side and a consequence if you fail, you will fall down into the pit.

Foraging or hunting for food while their food resource dice are all on d10 or d12 (so it will take a week or so before starving) and the area is just a forest not far from some settlements. That is not a dramatic scene, nor is it a tough challenge, because there is no serious consequences if failing. If the group has no food and will starve today if they can't get food, then you have a very dramatic scene with a very dangerous consequence (starving).

If the PCs are resting and taking some time off adventuring in their stronghold. Crafting an item is not dramatic or a tough challenge (craftsman would not last long in a settlement if it would be dramatic and tough ever time the make stuff). If a PC decides to make an item around a camp fire with limited time and resources and also risking that something bad out there can hear them, can be dramatic and also very dangerous. The task has a consequence if you fail.

Lets me make some examples.

I don't see the relevance of the examples. We have no disagreement about what is dramatic and what is not. I agree with your assessment about what is dramatic and what is not dramatic in the examples. And then what?

However I think there exists tough challenges that have no serious consequences. This is exactly what a willpower fisher seeks. A (sufficiently) long jump was my example of such a challenge. Completely without consequences, but difficult. We can't let the jump succeed automatically, but what do we do then? (You disallow such "goofy" actions from the game, if I understand you correctly).

There is a point with the long jump. Nirmena felt a surge of power (you could call it willpower) after pressuring herself in the jump across the chasm, so now she tries to pressure herself in the same way - but under less dangerous circumstances - in the hope of experiencing the same surge of power. (You could say she has invented training).

Can the characters craft anything they want, tame any animal, forage, hunt and fish without error if the circumstances are undramatic?

I presented an example and claimed that either 1, 2 og 3 from the original post were needed to avoid it. It seems you disagree. Could you formulate your solution as a fourth point? Here is my suggestion, but maybe I do not understand you correctly:

4) disallow difficult actions under non-dramatic circumstances.

4) disallow difficult actions under non-dramatic circumstances.

By the way I don't think this solution is necessarily bad. It might be a good solution to say that Forbidden Lands is an action game that does not contain rules for long jumping or the crafting of Fabergé eggs during peacetime. These actions are not "disallowed", but they are not modelled by the game. They could succeed, they could fail. The game can't answer this, so if you need an answer, you have to find another game.

<> I presented an example and claimed that either 1, 2 og 3 from the original post were needed to avoid it. It seems you disagree. Could you formulate your solution as a fourth point? Here is my suggestion, but maybe I do not understand you correctly <>

I must say that I don't understand what you are talking about to be honest. I guess that we have two totally different views how to play RPGs, especially YZE-games.

The GM describes the scene. The players then describes what they wants to do. If the GM thinks that this is something dramatic or could be called a tough challenge, then he assign a skill to be rolled for it. If the player succeeds then he has successfully done the action. If he fails:

<> something goes wrong.

Sometimes a failed skill roll doesn't have any extra consequences besides that the action fails, sometimes it does (GM discretion). Jumping over a chasm has an obvious quite serious consequence if it fails. Other skill rolls may not be obvious what the failure will look like. In those cases the GM can make something up, like giving the player despair (Empathy damage) or nearby animals, monsters and/or NPC hears it.

1) invent more drawbacks to pushing

You damage yourself by rolling banes should be drawback enough.

2) decide that some rolls can't be pushed

A skill roll can only be pushed if the push increases the effect of the roll, otherwise you can't push. You can't push because you want WP or more WP, the number of successes needs to matter.

3) decide that in some cases pushing doesn't trigger any willpower.

Besides that you can't go above 10 WP, why?

Your example with a player that wants to make some jumps just to get WP is just wrong. The excuse that he does some training is also wrong. The only practice in this game is with talents, so unless you house rule it in, there are no skill training rules in this game, so the player can't say that his character is doing that, which will come back to that the player wants to farm WP by doing nonsens things. You can allow that as a GM if you want, but that would be a house rule and why bother with the nonsens skill rolls, why not just let the PC fill up the WP when they want to, that's the reason he is doing it.
This is what differs you and me. I will never allow a player to just farm WP by doing nonsens actions, regardless how they describe it, you seems to be ok with it.

I have alpha/beta-tested this and played a long campaign in it and besides one time during the alpha-testing when a player wanted to hunt even though they already had maxed out the amount of food they could have, none of my 2-4 players have ever tried to "farm WP". They have played the game, they have come up with ideas on what to do. They have made sure that all the PCs are active with their skills, so they can earn WP naturally. For example my players rotated who lead the way and who built the camp and during all those years of playing, my players always had WP.

I must say that I don't understand what you are talking about to be honest. I guess that we have two totally different views how to play RPGs, especially YZE-games.

I am looking for a short description of your solutions to willpower farming attempts, i.e. your posts #2 and #4 as one or more headlines.

The GM describes the scene. The players then describes what they wants to do.

Yes, and what if the players want to long jump? You already answered in post #3. I am just trying to boil it down to a few sentences.

The long jump action is an extreme case of willpower farming. A thought experiment to study how farming attempts could be handled. I could only think of 1, 2 and 3 from quote #1 as solutions, and they all involve changing or adding rules, but your solutions do not, and I would like to add them to the list, but as short, concise descriptions.

If the GM thinks that this is something dramatic or could be called a tough challenge, then he [...]

I already know what to do in dramatic situations, but your answer doesn't say what to do if the situation is not dramatic, and willpower farming is exactly about stating non-dangerous actions that it would be absurd for the GM to just declare successful, like "Nirmena attemps to beat the eight meter long jump record".

It reminds me of this thread (viewtopic.php?p=31390&hilit=willpower#p31390) where Tomas from Free League states (quote #23) that you should not allow players to roll (and push) for meaningless actions where nothing is at stake, but when asked about what to do instead (post #24), there is silence.

You damage yourself by rolling banes should be drawback enough.

If it was, there would not be a problem with willpower farming. When the players think there is a high probability for rest in the near future, they are not afraid of the damage.

A skill roll can only be pushed if the push increases the effect of the roll, otherwise you can't push. You can't push because you want WP or more WP, the number of successes needs to matter.

Agreed. The question is whether it is enough. Some people - including yourself in post #8 here (viewtopic.php?t=6422&hilit=push+rolls) - decide that journey rolls can't be pushed (also not if they fail I presume).

3) decide that in some cases pushing doesn't trigger any willpower.

Besides that you can't go above 10 WP, why?

Why? To prevent willpower farming, i.e. too easy access to willpower points.

Your example with a player that wants to make some jumps just to get WP is just wrong.

What do you mean it is "wrong"? The player decides what his character does, and if he states that his character is going to try an eight meter jump, you have to respond somehow.

The excuse that he does some training is also wrong.

It is not an excuse. The player doesn't need to make excuses. At least in my games I think it is important that the players feel they can do whatever they want ("the player can't say that his character is doing that"). Of course the "world" will give a realistic response, but it should not be in the form of an angry GM punishing actions he does not approve of. I hate it when my players say things like: "I think the GM wants us to go this way".

This is what differs you and me. I will never allow a player to just farm WP by doing nonsens actions, regardless how they describe it, you seems to be ok with it.

Never mind you and me. Let's find out how to handle willpower farming. But no, I am nok ok with it. That is why I have started a thread about methods to avoid it.

I have alpha/beta-tested this and played a long campaign [...] none of my 2-4 players have ever tried to "farm WP".

Several people have reported willpower farming as a problem. If it is not a problem for you, it is all the more reason to give a short description of your solution. Maybe

4) refuse to make the player roll for undramatic actions. Instead roll yourself or decide the result.

(Automatic success seems absurd to me, so I propose this instead)