Fria Ligans forum

I was going to bump an old post on this spell, but it looks like it was edited into a porn ad a few days ago, so here's a new thread instead:

1. Am I correct in assuming that anything you are wearing/carrying is absorbed into your new form and becomes non-functional until you return to your 'base' form? If so, could an artifact be lost forever if its bearer transforms into an animal and never returns to their base form (either due to death or choice)?
2. When casting ANIMAL FORM again to return to your base form, is Power Level 1 sufficient, or do you have to hit the same PL as you did to take your current form, or even a PL based on your 'base' form strength?
3. When casting ANIMAL FORM while in ANIMAL FORM (whether to return to your base form or just shift to a different animal), can you use your current body parts as an ingredient? If so, would this 'lost part' carry over into other forms (would using your own tooth mean your base form would be missing a tooth when you return to it)?
4. Given the inherent risk of casting a Rank 3 spell without a Grimoire, is it standard practice for frequent users of this spell to create an extra Grimoire scroll of it and give it to a party member so they can use it to safe-cast the return to base form? Or possibly even carve it into a wall at any location they might routinely travel to in Eagle form?
5. If you happen to die while in an animal form, is this effectively a permanent death (given that your Empathy was reduced to 1 and RESURRECTION permanently reduces your Empathy by 1)?
6. Could ANIMAL FORM be bound into an extremely nasty trap, transforming a trespasser into a spider with no ability to revert unless they are a druid with this spell or have access to a non-trap item with this spell bound into it? Alternately, could this spell be bound to an actual hunting trap to transform anything it catches into a deer (which I'm guessing would require an additional 'weapon' hunting check to actually kill)?
7. Am I correct in my reading that you do not get the skill ranks of the animal? If so, is it really intended that a druid in the 'famous for its vision' Eagle form has a (possibly significantly) worse SCOUT die pool than they would in their base form given the reduction in Wits?
8. Do Animal Form attacks count as 'unarmed' for the BRAWLER talent? Or do the Blunt damage attacks count as 'blunt melee weapons' for the HAMMER FIGHTER talent?

1) Am I correct in assuming that anything you are wearing/carrying is absorbed into your new form and becomes non-functional until you return to your 'base' form? If so, could an artifact be lost forever if its bearer transforms into an animal and never returns to their base form (either due to death or choice)?

This has been debated since, well, forever. This has been asked several time and for some reason they have not provided an answer. There are two schools for this and both are valid. Either all items held or worn fall to the ground or everything held or worn will magically be absorbed as part of the new body. If the later is chosen (by the GM) then everything is lost in the void (or the druids mind or wherever it goes). If think that the idea that most groups chose is that all items are in the druids mind (or something). The spell would be less useful if everything would dropped to the ground.

2) When casting ANIMAL FORM again to return to your base form, is Power Level 1 sufficient, or do you have to hit the same PL as you did to take your current form, or even a PL based on your 'base' form strength?

You need to use enough required based on your 'base form' character (if your strength is 4 then you need to cast it at PL2).

3) When casting ANIMAL FORM while in ANIMAL FORM (whether to return to your base form or just shift to a different animal), can you use your current body parts as an ingredient? If so, would this 'lost part' carry over into other forms (would using your own tooth mean your base form would be missing a tooth when you return to it)?

Any injuries, wounds you get in animal form will appear in your 'base form'. Missing teeth or claws will be a critical injuries. I would suggest severed fingers or toes for claws or (of course) knocked out teeth for tooth.

4) Given the inherent risk of casting a Rank 3 spell without a Grimoire, is it standard practice for frequent users of this spell to create an extra Grimoire scroll of it and give it to a party member so they can use it to safe-cast the return to base form? Or possibly even carve it into a wall at any location they might routinely travel to in Eagle form?

All ideas are good ideas. The spell Bind Magic to create a magic trinket (that the druid doesn't carry while becoming an animal). The magic trinket should be a PL2 item, so that it can be used once but the magic doesn't goes away until it is used. It also needs to be something that an animal can use. Why not a small twig with the trigger, when broken by an animal bite.

5) If you happen to die while in an animal form, is this effectively a permanent death (given that your Empathy was reduced to 1 and RESURRECTION permanently reduces your Empathy by 1)?

Better not die in animal form (or in any form for that matter).

6) Could ANIMAL FORM be bound into an extremely nasty trap, transforming a trespasser into a spider with no ability to revert unless they are a druid with this spell or have access to a non-trap item with this spell bound into it? Alternately, could this spell be bound to an actual hunting trap to transform anything it catches into a deer (which I'm guessing would require an additional 'weapon' hunting check to actually kill)?

In several of the official adventures there are traps, potions that do exactly this, changing the poor adventurer into something else. If I remember correctly, the only save you have for this is that a spell-caster cast dispel when the change start.

7) Am I correct in my reading that you do not get the skill ranks of the animal? If so, is it really intended that a druid in the 'famous for its vision' Eagle form has a (possibly significantly) worse SCOUT die pool than they would in their base form given the reduction in Wits?

You become an eagle, but you don't get the experience of an eagle, but on the other hand, you become an eagle that has a bunch of other skills that a normal eagle doesn't have.

8) Do Animal Form attacks count as 'unarmed' for the BRAWLER talent? Or do the Blunt damage attacks count as 'blunt melee weapons' for the HAMMER FIGHTER talent.

All melee attacks without weapons, regardless if it is a fist, a foot, claw or bite falls under the Brawler talent.

1) Am I correct in assuming that anything you are wearing/carrying is absorbed into your new form and becomes non-functional until you return to your 'base' form? If so, could an artifact be lost forever if its bearer transforms into an animal and never returns to their base form (either due to death or choice)?

This has been debated since, well, forever. This has been asked several time and for some reason they have not provided an answer. There are two schools for this and both are valid. Either all items held or worn fall to the ground or everything held or worn will magically be absorbed as part of the new body. If the later is chosen (by the GM) then everything is lost in the void (or the druids mind or wherever it goes). If think that the idea that most groups chose is that all items are in the druids mind (or something). The spell would be less useful if everything would dropped to the ground.

Kinda weird that this hasn't been clarified, but not exactly shocking I guess...

2) When casting ANIMAL FORM again to return to your base form, is Power Level 1 sufficient, or do you have to hit the same PL as you did to take your current form, or even a PL based on your 'base' form strength?

You need to use enough required based on your 'base form' character (if your strength is 4 then you need to cast it at PL2).

Ouch. I guess my Strength 3 druid would have to leave some ingredients with the party for easy return to base form.

3) When casting ANIMAL FORM while in ANIMAL FORM (whether to return to your base form or just shift to a different animal), can you use your current body parts as an ingredient? If so, would this 'lost part' carry over into other forms (would using your own tooth mean your base form would be missing a tooth when you return to it)?

Any injuries, wounds you get in animal form will appear in your 'base form'. Missing teeth or claws will be a critical injuries. I would suggest severed fingers or toes for claws or (of course) knocked out teeth for tooth.

Yep, that sounds about right.

4) Given the inherent risk of casting a Rank 3 spell without a Grimoire, is it standard practice for frequent users of this spell to create an extra Grimoire scroll of it and give it to a party member so they can use it to safe-cast the return to base form? Or possibly even carve it into a wall at any location they might routinely travel to in Eagle form?

All ideas are good ideas. The spell Bind Magic to create a magic trinket (that the druid doesn't carry while becoming an animal). The magic trinket should be a PL2 item, so that it can be used once but the magic doesn't goes away until it is used. It also needs to be something that an animal can use. Why not a small twig with the trigger, when broken by an animal bite.

The immediate issue I see with the trinket is that you are just shifting the mishap risk to the point of item creation. If you were to do this, It would probably be worth making a 'one use per day' item instead: More likely to get a mishap than making a single use item, but less likely to get a mishap than making five (or more) single use items (and certainly less time consuming). Of course, the one-use trinket has the advantage of not requiring WP expenditure to activate, so might be a good idea to have one of these on hand as well...

5) If you happen to die while in an animal form, is this effectively a permanent death (given that your Empathy was reduced to 1 and RESURRECTION permanently reduces your Empathy by 1)?

Better not die in animal form (or in any form for that matter).

Well, we try our best, but sometimes our best might not be good enough...

6) Could ANIMAL FORM be bound into an extremely nasty trap, transforming a trespasser into a spider with no ability to revert unless they are a druid with this spell or have access to a non-trap item with this spell bound into it? Alternately, could this spell be bound to an actual hunting trap to transform anything it catches into a deer (which I'm guessing would require an additional 'weapon' hunting check to actually kill)?

In several of the official adventures there are traps, potions that do exactly this, changing the poor adventurer into something else. If I remember correctly, the only save you have for this is that a spell-caster cast dispel when the change start.

Ouch.

7) Am I correct in my reading that you do not get the skill ranks of the animal? If so, is it really intended that a druid in the 'famous for its vision' Eagle form has a (possibly significantly) worse SCOUT die pool than they would in their base form given the reduction in Wits?

You become an eagle, but you don't get the experience of an eagle, but on the other hand, you become an eagle that has a bunch of other skills that a normal eagle doesn't have.

As a Wits 6 Druid without a lot of actual skill ranks yet, Animal Forms just seem bad for traveling as my Survival and Scout die pools would be 1-3 dice at best: It just seems weird to be taking a 5 die penalty to my ability to spot things and navigate. Offhand, I was thinking this might work better with a 'point for point' trade off where each point of Strength you gain reduces your Wits by 1 and each point of Agility you gain would reduce your Empathy by 1 (with a minimum attribute score of 1), which would make 'travel/recon forms' options much more feasible.

8) Do Animal Form attacks count as 'unarmed' for the BRAWLER talent? Or do the Blunt damage attacks count as 'blunt melee weapons' for the HAMMER FIGHTER talent.

All melee attacks without weapons, regardless if it is a fist, a foot, claw or bite falls under the Brawler talent.

Thank you.

1) Am I correct in assuming that anything you are wearing/carrying is absorbed into your new form and becomes non-functional until you return to your 'base' form? If so, could an artifact be lost forever if its bearer transforms into an animal and never returns to their base form (either due to death or choice)?

This has been debated since, well, forever. This has been asked several time and for some reason they have not provided an answer. There are two schools for this and both are valid. Either all items held or worn fall to the ground or everything held or worn will magically be absorbed as part of the new body. If the later is chosen (by the GM) then everything is lost in the void (or the druids mind or wherever it goes). If think that the idea that most groups chose is that all items are in the druids mind (or something). The spell would be less useful if everything would dropped to the ground.

Kinda weird that this hasn't been clarified, but not exactly shocking I guess...

I agree. I remember sending the question to them, but they never replied, maybe it was lost in the void. In any case, the logical answer is that the items magically disappears with the spell, otherwise the spell wouldn't be so useful.

2) When casting ANIMAL FORM again to return to your base form, is Power Level 1 sufficient, or do you have to hit the same PL as you did to take your current form, or even a PL based on your 'base' form strength?

You need to use enough required based on your 'base form' character (if your strength is 4 then you need to cast it at PL2).

Ouch. I guess my Strength 3 druid would have to leave some ingredients with the party for easy return to base form.

Do remember that you can still push skill rolls in animal forms and with that you can still earn WP.

4) Given the inherent risk of casting a Rank 3 spell without a Grimoire, is it standard practice for frequent users of this spell to create an extra Grimoire scroll of it and give it to a party member so they can use it to safe-cast the return to base form? Or possibly even carve it into a wall at any location they might routinely travel to in Eagle form?

All ideas are good ideas. The spell Bind Magic to create a magic trinket (that the druid doesn't carry while becoming an animal). The magic trinket should be a PL2 item, so that it can be used once but the magic doesn't goes away until it is used. It also needs to be something that an animal can use. Why not a small twig with the trigger, when broken by an animal bite.

The immediate issue I see with the trinket is that you are just shifting the mishap risk to the point of item creation. If you were to do this, It would probably be worth making a 'one use per day' item instead: More likely to get a mishap than making a single use item, but less likely to get a mishap than making five (or more) single use items (and certainly less time consuming). Of course, the one-use trinket has the advantage of not requiring WP expenditure to activate, so might be a good idea to have one of these on hand as well...

Creating a PL2 magic trinket of a PL2 spell will cost a total of 4 WP, which gives you a 52% risk of a mishap, if you instead create a PL5 magic trinket of a PL2 spell, it will cost 7 WP to create which means 72% risk of a mishap and also will cost 2 WP to activate, the PL2 magic item doesn't cost anything to use.

6) Could ANIMAL FORM be bound into an extremely nasty trap, transforming a trespasser into a spider with no ability to revert unless they are a druid with this spell or have access to a non-trap item with this spell bound into it? Alternately, could this spell be bound to an actual hunting trap to transform anything it catches into a deer (which I'm guessing would require an additional 'weapon' hunting check to actually kill)?

In several of the official adventures there are traps, potions that do exactly this, changing the poor adventurer into something else. If I remember correctly, the only save you have for this is that a spell-caster cast dispel when the change start.

Ouch.

If I remember correctly this kind of evil trap exists two times in the official adventures, both in the extra books and not in the campaign books, although I it was a long time ago I read the these books so I might be wrong. But this can be fixed, by creating an magic trinket (with the right PL) that the transformed PC can use, it will just take a bit of more time to fix than standard injuries.

7) Am I correct in my reading that you do not get the skill ranks of the animal? If so, is it really intended that a druid in the 'famous for its vision' Eagle form has a (possibly significantly) worse SCOUT die pool than they would in their base form given the reduction in Wits?

You become an eagle, but you don't get the experience of an eagle, but on the other hand, you become an eagle that has a bunch of other skills that a normal eagle doesn't have.

As a Wits 6 Druid without a lot of actual skill ranks yet, Animal Forms just seem bad for traveling as my Survival and Scout die pools would be 1-3 dice at best: It just seems weird to be taking a 5 die penalty to my ability to spot things and navigate. Offhand, I was thinking this might work better with a 'point for point' trade off where each point of Strength you gain reduces your Wits by 1 and each point of Agility you gain would reduce your Empathy by 1 (with a minimum attribute score of 1), which would make 'travel/recon forms' options much more feasible.

Actually the spell doesn't say if you use the druid spell list or the animal spell list. Since you do loose some of your wits because of this, maybe it is the animal skill list you use.

...
Creating a PL2 magic trinket of a PL2 spell will cost a total of 4 WP, which gives you a 52% risk of a mishap, if you instead create a PL5 magic trinket of a PL2 spell, it will cost 7 WP to create which means 72% risk of a mishap and also will cost 2 WP to activate, the PL2 magic item doesn't cost anything to use.
...

Just to run through the item creation math (please correct me if I have something wrong):

OBJECTIVE: Create a PL2 ANIMAL FORM trinket
ASSUMPTIONS: You have this spell in your Grimoire and have access to all relevant ingredients.

Version 1: One Use Consumable Item With No Duration Restriction
BASE SPELL: WPx1 + Ingredient
BIND SPELL: WPx1 + Ingredient
SAFE CAST: Minus 1 Die with Grimoire.
FINAL COST: Spend WPx2 plus two ingredients
FINAL ROLL: One Die (16.67% Mishap Chance).

Version 2: One Use Per Day Item
BASE SPELL: WPx1 + Ingredient
BIND SPELL: WPx4 + Ingredient
SAFE CAST: Minus 1 Die with Grimoire.
FINAL COST: Spend WPx5 plus two ingredients
FINAL ROLL: Four Dice (51.77% Mishap Chance).

Between crafting one re-usable item or four one-shot items, you will roll four dice with the following possible roll results:

• Zero Banes: No mishaps with either method
• One Bane: One Mishap with either method
• Two Banes: One Mishap for the re-usable item, but two mishaps for the one-shot items.
• Three Banes: One Mishap for the re-usable item, but three mishaps for the one-shot items.
• Four Banes: One Mishap for the re-usable item, but four mishaps for the one-shot items.

Every one-shot item you create past #4 is an additional mishap chance that your re-usable item doesn't have.

If the objective is to avoid spending WP to revert to base form, then the 'one-shot' items are the way to go but have a mishap risk with each one you create (each roll is a 1/216 chance of being dragged off through a rift by demons).
If the objective is to both minimize overall mishap chance and avoid mishap chance when reverting to base form (without depending on allies to hold your grimoire and ingredients), then the re-useable item is the way to go.
If the objective is to minimize WP cost and avoid mishap chance when reverting to base form, your best option is to have a Grimoire and Ingredient somehow available (held by an ally, left in an accessible spot, etc.).

Sure, it is good to have a 'once per day' magic item, but I have noticed that during an adventure, WPs are usually spent very fast and 'once per day' item cost WP to activate, 'one use' items doesn't cost WP to use. My players valued to create WP free items, so they could use their WP for other things. They also valued safe casting (see below).

I have a little trouble understanding your comparison list of banes. It an be so that we mean the same thing, but just in case:
When you create a magic trinket with Bind Magic, you make one roll to see if you the it overcharges and/or misfires (it can be good to roll the dice for the bound spell and the dice for the bind magic spell separately for this reason). Overcharge can be a nice touch for the bound spell, it doesn't do anything really for the bind magic spell since you have already paid for the PL and extra PL doesn't really do anything. When it comes to misfire, a misfire is a misfire, a spellcasting doesn't generate multiple misfires.

So if we use your spellcaster example above, and creates either four 'one use' items or one 'once per day' item, then each of the 'one use' item creations use one die (17%) to see if it overcharges or misfires. You roll four dice (52%) to see if you overcharge and/or misfires with the creation of the 'once per day' item creation.
To further you example a little bit, we can actually remove two dice (assuming that you have rank 3 in the relevant magic talent) for safe casting if the bound spell is rank 2 spell, then you don't have have to roll any die when creating a 'one use' item and you roll only three dice (42%) for the 'once per day' item. If the bound spell is a rank 1 spell, the creation of the 'once per day', only two dice (31%) needs to be rolled to see if you overcharge/misfires.

1. Am I correct in assuming that anything you are wearing/carrying is absorbed into your new form and becomes non-functional until you return to your 'base' form? If so, could an artifact be lost forever if its bearer transforms into an animal and never returns to their base form (either due to death or choice)?

Presumably the animal would die eventually, although if the caster has chosen something that can potentially live forever, like a dragon or a lobster, you might have to wait.

I'd say anything you're wearing or carrying goes into some sort of pocket (ahem) dimension and the passage of time stays the same, so if you have a slice of bread in your pocket and you turn into a wolf for a week, and then turn back, the slice of bread is pretty stale by now. Things like clothes probably suffer some kind of entropy (although not as much as you might think, as there hasn't been any wear and tear from a body moving about, nor have moths been eating them unless there's something we don't know about the pocket dimension), but magic artifacts will probably survive the trip.

So at the point where someone finally slays the dragon, or a lobster tries to ditch its shell to become even larger and this time it goes wrong, I expect you'll see some ancient clothes and a magic sword or something pop out of thin air. Before that, I think Sense Magic might give you a clue that there's something weird going on with this animal.

BTW, "pocket dimension" sounds awfully like "some demons might be able to travel there and nick your stuff". Just saying.

1. Am I correct in assuming that anything you are wearing/carrying is absorbed into your new form and becomes non-functional until you return to your 'base' form? If so, could an artifact be lost forever if its bearer transforms into an animal and never returns to their base form (either due to death or choice)?

Presumably the animal would die eventually, although if the caster has chosen something that can potentially live forever, like a dragon or a lobster, you might have to wait.

I'd say anything you're wearing or carrying goes into some sort of pocket (ahem) dimension and the passage of time stays the same, so if you have a slice of bread in your pocket and you turn into a wolf for a week, and then turn back, the slice of bread is pretty stale by now. Things like clothes probably suffer some kind of entropy (although not as much as you might think, as there hasn't been any wear and tear from a body moving about, nor have moths been eating them unless there's something we don't know about the pocket dimension), but magic artifacts will probably survive the trip.

So at the point where someone finally slays the dragon, or a lobster tries to ditch its shell to become even larger and this time it goes wrong, I expect you'll see some ancient clothes and a magic sword or something pop out of thin air. Before that, I think Sense Magic might give you a clue that there's something weird going on with this animal.

BTW, "pocket dimension" sounds awfully like "some demons might be able to travel there and nick your stuff". Just saying.

Since the spell is instantaneous, it is kinda implied that any 'pocket dimension' created would not actually be impacted by the character's death and all possessions would remain in there forever if you died in this form (assuming that no demon 'nicks your stuff' as you suggest).

Given the lack of information on how this is all supposed to work, I suppose your interpretation is as good as any...

Another couple of questions I forgot to ask earlier:

1. While in ANIMAL FORM, do you count as an Animal, a Humanoid, or both (or neither) for type restrictions? For instance, do you take damage from the GHOULISH GLARE spell (which only effects Humanoids)? Can you be controlled by the BEASTMASTER spell (which only effects mammal animals)?
2. Am I correct in assuming the 'Rats (Swarm)' and 'Bats (Swarm)' animals are not valid forms for this spell?
3. Are Wolfkin the result of Druids spending too much time in Wolf form and getting pregnant before returning to their humanoid form and giving birth???

a) You become whatever animal you transformed into, you even have lower Wits and Empathy because of it, for good and bad.
b) Erik/Brior (the main writer of the setting of FbL) answered the question about swarms here.
c) For some reason, I really don't think so, but if that backstory works for you, go nuts.