Pedro Laus
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Estelang is Gurthang?

Tue 16 Jan 2024, 15:15

In "Tales from the lone lands" there is an adventure - messing about in boats - where the adventurers visit the final resting place of Túrin.
As a Tolkien reader, I noticed the similarities between the sword Estelang - wich can be found by the players in this adventure - and Túrin's Sword, Gurthang.
Does someone knows if Estelang is, in fact, Gurthang/Anglachel? I ask this because the book does not say explicity that it is, besides the similarities pointing to it, and I intend to introduce the legendary sword of Túrin later in my campaign.
 
Marcello
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Re: Estelang is Gurthang?

Tue 16 Jan 2024, 15:37

Very good question!
I will GM this adventure tomorrow so the answers will be interesting.

The scenario is not very precise about the origins of Estelang - just that an ancient hero (not as ancient as Turin) came to the island and forged himself the sword.
The rests of the forge will be found by the players.
But it's a bit mysterious, as the sword is described as including some strange metal, just like Gurthang.
Where did this material came from? And how some warrior of old could have the skill, in a ruined forge, to craft a sword out of it?

Maybe the material came from a destroyed Gurthang, so Estelang is and is not Gurthang?
(Not helping you if you want Gurthang to appear later)
 
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Ninchilla
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Re: Estelang is Gurthang?

Wed 17 Jan 2024, 15:07

I definitely read it to mean that Estelang is (re)forged from (part of) Gurthang, but (like a lot of the legendarium stuff that appears in The One Ring) it's left sort of vague. We're free to adjust, add, or remove anything so that it better suits the story we want to tell, though; Tales from the Lone-lands even suggests ways to remove the Heir plotline, so you could definitely change the (implied) source of Estelang's black metal to something else - it's reasonable to say that Gurthang couldn't have been the only black-bladed weapon ever to exist in Beleriand.
 
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HunterGreen
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Re: Estelang is Gurthang?

Wed 17 Jan 2024, 15:27

For my game I decided that the heir's ancestor used some of the scraps of the same star-metal that Ëol had used in making Anglachel and Anguirel, but only because the player of my Heir had decided (even before this adventure) that she was a serious Túrin fanboy, and I didn't want it to be Gurthang or even its parts because I still like the (discarded by JRRT) idea of the prophecy of Dagor Dagorath (and my other game had been built around it and included the heroes collecting Gurthang and using it before putting it safely into storage in preparation for Dagor Dagorath).
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Redcoat
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Re: Estelang is Gurthang?

Fri 19 Jan 2024, 14:31

I may need to read the story again, but in one version Gurthang was crafted by a dark elf, but Estelang is Numenorian. Also, Numenor was founded in the Second age so Gurthang would predate Estelang by many centuries.

It's a fun idea to have Gurthang reappear. I would lay a heavy curse on it, and it would make Elrond scowl to see it.
 
Sebastian
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Re: Estelang is Gurthang?

Sat 20 Jan 2024, 00:46

In my game, Gurthang stays buried alongside Turin, but Estelang is forged with some remnants of Stariron. One of my players is an absolute Lord of the Rings loremaster, and he came up with a whole story of how stariron came to be, why it might be cursed if forged into weapons. So for me, the Numenoreans had dealings with the dwarves in the Second Age. The houeses of the Ered Luin knew about Eol and what he did with the knowledge about stariron. So it is not a far fetch to assume, that they are interested in the story about Turin's grave on Tol Morwen and the fight of the Numenoreans against Sauron. Maybe the Dwarves traded stariron for something else with them. Or they awarded the metal to an hero of Numenor. The leftovers were found by the heir in Tales of the Lost Lands.

Right now we're in the middle of the question "What to do with Estelang?" It seems cursed, but ancient legends of the Dwarves speak of other uses for stariron than weapons. Forged into a chain it holds even the mightiest creatures. Which would come in handy in the next two (and last) adventures of Tales.
 
howard035
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Re: Estelang is Gurthang?

Wed 14 Feb 2024, 23:56

It's kind of a big deal if Gurthang is removed from the Turin's grave, since Turin is destined to rise from the dead and use that sword to slay Morgoth. I would speculate that Estelang is reforged from Anguirel, which could have washed up on the western edge of Tol Morwen.
 
DeusXLondon
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Re: Estelang is Gurthang?

Sun 14 Apr 2024, 16:48

HI All
In my game, Gurthang stays buried alongside Turin, but Estelang is forged with some remnants of Stariron. One of my players is an absolute Lord of the Rings loremaster, and he came up with a whole story of how stariron came to be, why it might be cursed if forged into weapons. So for me, the Numenoreans had dealings with the dwarves in the Second Age. The houeses of the Ered Luin knew about Eol and what he did with the knowledge about stariron. So it is not a far fetch to assume, that they are interested in the story about Turin's grave on Tol Morwen and the fight of the Numenoreans against Sauron. Maybe the Dwarves traded stariron for something else with them. Or they awarded the metal to an hero of Numenor. The leftovers were found by the heir in Tales of the Lost Lands.

Right now we're in the middle of the question "What to do with Estelang?" It seems cursed, but ancient legends of the Dwarves speak of other uses for stariron than weapons. Forged into a chain it holds even the mightiest creatures. Which would come in handy in the next two (and last) adventures of Tales.
Nice discussion. I'd suggest it depends how deep into Dwarven and Elven lore your players have appetite for, and whether they want practical or mystical views of what star-iron may be, or what risks & benefits it may have.

[ Other Earlier Tolkien estate licensed games have mapped Tolkien's metals and gem-crafting to our IRL periodic table and even possible alloys & techniques. I'm not sure how much is canon anymore]

Gurthang's blade is described as made of Galvorn "Shining Black', which is arguable a blend of Durang 'dark-iron' possibly Titanium, and Eog 'star-iron'. IMC I've theorized that the bits of Star-Iron the high smith used were fragments of a small asteroid/planetesimal or moonlet core, a bit like 16 Psyche. This composition lets us get very creative with the periodic table. So a folded or damascene style longsword blade of impact fused nickel-iron steel globules with some vacuum foamed Titanium intrusions, Iridium edges and gold wrapped Cranor 'tree-gold amber' spine sounds pretty impressive. The gold foil wrapped amber capacitor would build up a piezoelectric or static charge for nice arcing bolts when quick drawn or cleaving metal armours.. And then if you allow the High elven gem smiths to start getting into industrial diamond anvils, CVD or asteroid impact shock nano diamonds for your micro serrated cutting edges, there is really no limit.

If you are using it being part of Anguirel, maybe Maeglin had Ren the Nazgul toss in some natural uranium( celebur 'burning silver'?) grains for the 'evil sickness and hair-loss curse, black speech runes chiseled to show the radium green glow at night, and always hot to the touch' bit when the Fire King was forging his Burning Blade out of red edged galvorn in the furnaces of Angband.... Alternately if you don't want it that 1st age super-evil, the Black Numenorian smiths also learned some Celebur tricks from Annatar. For max freakiness, give it a sheath with Mithrarian(Abyss of High Silver) anti-gravity wire from Amon Lind, so the heavy bastard sword doesn't burden the wearer, and even floats on water. Of course if you unfasten the sheath from the metal belt, it will fly up and stick to the ceiling :)

Certainly sounds both awesomely dangerous and dangerously cursed ;)

DX
 
ImperatorRex
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Re: Estelang is Gurthang?

Tue 04 Jun 2024, 19:16

It's kind of a big deal if Gurthang is removed from the Turin's grave, since Turin is destined to rise from the dead and use that sword to slay Morgoth. I would speculate that Estelang is reforged from Anguirel, which could have washed up on the western edge of Tol Morwen.
What
 
ImperatorRex
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Re: Estelang is Gurthang?

Tue 04 Jun 2024, 19:18

Apart from any other consideration, if Gurthang is buried by Túrin, both of them are under the waves, after the sinking of Beleriand.

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