Oceanliner
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Posts: 14
Joined: Tue 05 Feb 2019, 00:28

Help me improve the talents for the Minstrel and Rouge

Thu 07 Sep 2023, 15:21

I like most of the rules in Forbidden Lands but some of the talents I think needs some rework. Anyone else have some house rules or changes to the talents that are good alternatives?

I have some thoughts and ideas below:

The Minstrel
Path of the Hymn - Spend WP to help friends recover.
Changes: I would completely replace this with an ability aimed at making the Minstrel being able to charm and dazzle in social situations. I think the talent as it stands could be useful but it belongs to a cleric or healer profession.

Path of the Song - Spend WP to draw attention, get silver and deal damage.
Changes: I like the theme of benefits for performing but would change the third stage to give the character (temporarily?) improved REPUTATION, perhaps +1 REPUTATION per WP spent.

Path of the Warcry - Spend WP to give bonuses to friends, boons to enemies and deal damage.
Changes: I would keep this as it is.

The Rouge:
Path of the Face - Spend WP to disguise yourself.
Changes: I would keep this as it is.

Path of Poison - Spend WP to get poisons.
Changes: I'll just find this one really boring. Would change completely to a talent focusing on stealing things. Perhaps Level 1 spend WP to steal objects on a person, Level 2 spend WP to break into places (or out of?), Level 3 spend WP to find help from thief guild or other shady elements.

Path of the Killer - Spend WP to increase sneak attack damage, get out of restraints and force people to do your bidding.
Changes: This talent I really don't like. Level 1 is fine but the other levels needs rework. I would change Level 2 to spend WP to shake of anyone (or anything) chasing you. Level 3 I'm not sure maybe just keep it for now.
 
JohanR
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue 02 Mar 2021, 23:34

Re: Help me improve the talents for the Minstrel and Rouge

Thu 07 Sep 2023, 18:07

Matt Key added Burglar as a profession. It might give you some inspiration to write your own paths:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/30 ... fessions-I

I added a Path of the Burglar instead in Reforged Power, but I haven't rewritten as much.
You can look at both through the Full-size preview on drivethrurpg, and see if something inspires you.
 
Oceanliner
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Posts: 14
Joined: Tue 05 Feb 2019, 00:28

Re: Help me improve the talents for the Minstrel and Rouge

Fri 08 Sep 2023, 21:37

Matt Key added Burglar as a profession. It might give you some inspiration to write your own paths:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/30 ... fessions-I

I added a Path of the Burglar instead in Reforged Power, but I haven't rewritten as much.
You can look at both through the Full-size preview on drivethrurpg, and see if something inspires you.

Yes thank you for the input! Both thoose resources offer solid talents that can be used for the Rouge and the Minstrel.

I particulary like the talent in the Path of the Burglar where you can use WP to take a free dodge, get up or flee action will add that to my modded list!

Path of Influence in the Reforged is not quite what I am looking for (like the name though) will add my own Path of Charm to the Minstrel:
1) Spend a WP to find a secret or gossip about someone, or start your own gossip.
2) When you try to charm someone you may spend WP to add an equal amount of successes to a Manipulation roll. You may
do this after you look at the result of your die roll.
3) You have friends in high places. Spend WP equal to the NPC:s Reputation and he or she will owe you a favor.
 
JohanR
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue 02 Mar 2021, 23:34

Re: Help me improve the talents for the Minstrel and Rouge

Sat 09 Sep 2023, 00:01

Those sound really god, I like them! :)

If you don't want the Minstrel to heal, perhaps they could hum a tune, that reduces any attribute damage by 1. As long as you are not traveling around quietly, it could then even be a fast reaction? Perhaps you can spend multiple WP if multiple allies or attributes are targeted? Spend WP first after you have seen the result of the rolls.
Then you could perhaps see it as some sort of alternative "morale boost" instead of "magical healing"?
 
Oceanliner
Topic Author
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue 05 Feb 2019, 00:28

Re: Help me improve the talents for the Minstrel and Rouge

Sat 09 Sep 2023, 15:53

Those sound really god, I like them! :)

If you don't want the Minstrel to heal, perhaps they could hum a tune, that reduces any attribute damage by 1. As long as you are not traveling around quietly, it could then even be a fast reaction? Perhaps you can spend multiple WP if multiple allies or attributes are targeted? Spend WP first after you have seen the result of the rolls.
Then you could perhaps see it as some sort of alternative "morale boost" instead of "magical healing"?
Yea good point. I’d say the 2nd tier in Path of the Warcry is to similar to the 1st tier so it would be more interesting to add one talent from path of the Hymn instead. Then the Warcry path would be geared towards combat but a bit more broad in what you can do.

But there’s also the question if a professional talent should be focused on one thing: combat, social etc or if it is more about interesting for the players to get bonuses for various situations in one single path?

Also there’s the question of style. I’d prefer if the bonuses are more geared towards role playing like finding friends or influencing others. But some groups might find it more interesting with pure stat bonuses from talents.
 
JohanR
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue 02 Mar 2021, 23:34

Re: Help me improve the talents for the Minstrel and Rouge

Tue 24 Oct 2023, 15:20

Did you land on your improved talents for Minstrel and Rogue?
If so, I am curious of what the finished versions of talents look like?
Did they ever see play?

It would be a fun experiment to rewrite them all. Perhaps the ability to go through armor that the Fighter/Archer has could be better suited for a Rogue? etc, etc
 
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Dizzyfugu
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Re: Help me improve the talents for the Minstrel and Rouge

Thu 26 Oct 2023, 08:29

Perhaps the ability to go through armor that the Fighter/Archer has could be better suited for a Rogue? etc, etc
I really like the concept of using Sleight of Hand inmstead of Melee for a "cutthroat" attack on an unaware victim (see RefP, revides Rank 3 Path of the Killer). Maybe make this sort of attack available earler, but add the increased damage and/or the armor ineffectiveness gradually later? Could become a complete "Path of the Cutthroat", as it is I find it VERY powerful - even though you have to find the right conditions to apply Rank 3, though.
 
JohanR
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue 02 Mar 2021, 23:34

Re: Help me improve the talents for the Minstrel and Rouge

Thu 26 Oct 2023, 08:36

If I would redo ALL talents, lets say for a Forbidden Lands 2.0, then I would also rebalance them somewhat around the WP worth vs opportunity of use.

Like a rank 1 talent could be worth slightly less than a "point of changing outcome", a rank 2 talent could be worth around it and a rank 3 could be worth slightly above? But improve worth if it can't be used often and reduce it if it applies to many situations. Gaining or needing to spend actions to use the talent should very much affect the cost too.

Like a halflings ability to dodge is worth more that a "point of changing outcome". If a monster hits you with 2 dice and deals 2 base damage for a total damage of 3, a 2 WP here reduces damage by 3, so really worth 1.5 "points of changing outcome" per WP. If the monster would trip you, set you on fire, eat you, etc, and only hit you with one die, the WP value goes up tremendously. It is also always usable in exactly every fight, which makes the halfling ability very good (probably too good for most GMs liking).

A warriors ability to add +1 damage with a WP, is always exactly worth one "point of changing outcome". If it could add a "hit" it could be worth more if you held on to a greatsword or the like, but less than one "point of changing outcome" if you only deal 1 damage, the target can dodge or has lots of armor.

WP can also make you immune to failing, and that might not be optimal for an rpg? Like a Goblin can always succeed to sneak everywhere in darkness, as you roll sneak vs scouting first, and just apply the WP afterwards. (on the other hand, this particular talent usage is very situational, especially as the goblin probably will have to sneak on their own, without their party, so it is kind of balanced)
But a talent that lets you say craft without failing is perhaps not ideal? So WP should perhaps instead allow a reroll in cases where a success is all you need for a task?
 
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Dizzyfugu
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Re: Help me improve the talents for the Minstrel and Rouge

Thu 26 Oct 2023, 13:08

Hmm, Personally, I am not a fan of automatic successes, even if you have to pay WP for it. Spending WPs on a 1:1 ratio to fudge a specific test (like the goblin example) is IMHO O.K., because it's situational and can become quite expensive. But I already have "problems" with those Talents that add damage after a hit - but that's probably the only way to make sure you take an opponent down with a single strike when it counts (and there are enough WP in store), to make mundane attacks as "effective" as some spells (like immolate: Zap - you're dead!).
However, for Talents like Crafting there's the opportunity to push the respective roll, and I am not certain if a Professional Talent offers enough in-game attractiveness. Crafting things normally takes place "outside of the action", and I think that a Profession Talent focussed on this is not really in line with the others? Making quick repairs could be more attractive, but - like the Elves' Kin Talent - things have to be broken first before you can use the Talent at all.
 
JohanR
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue 02 Mar 2021, 23:34

Re: Help me improve the talents for the Minstrel and Rouge

Thu 26 Oct 2023, 18:59

But I already have "problems" with those Talents that add damage after a hit

I think that if they were limited to 1 WP for 1 damage it would be more fair, as in they can spend only 1 WP per attack. Now this is probably a rank 3 talent you are talking about, so then I guess it is ok for the game in its current form. But it could be a bit boring to plan for an epic fight with a NPC when a PC can choose to just one-shot it.

If everyone could spend a maximum of 1 WP per round, (a half-elf could perhaps spend more and also be rewarded with an extra WP or so, instead of their current kin talent). Then WP would feel more like a resource you would have to plan around, and that might add something. But then you would also need to rewrite the magic system kind of completely.

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