Raellus
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Throwing "Blind"

Fri 02 Jun 2023, 19:44

Here's a scenario. An enemy soldier lobs a grenade over a wall towards the PCs. He can't see them, but he has an idea where they are (he saw them the previous round). The rules say that for a ranged attack, the attacker must have LOS or they have to use the Indirect Fire rules. Looking at the latter, indirect fire requires a Forward Observer with LOS to the target. So, it appears that the rules don't allow for a grenade attack like the one described above (i.e. throwing blind). That's really unrealistic. Am I missing something?

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Rolando
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Re: Throwing "Blind"

Sat 03 Jun 2023, 01:52

The rules are simple for game play reasons, you know throwing at an unseen target is realistic, so at worst a penalty as the soldier throwing the grenade will be estimating where the grenade will land.

Consider this similar to attacking with artillery at a map coordinate. the soldier is attacking a hex in the other side of the wall and the soldier saw the hex for a while, it is known information, just like a coordinate in a map.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Throwing "Blind"

Sat 03 Jun 2023, 08:35

Hand Grenades (except for antitank) doesn't have direct damage (this table was part of the latest update regarding this) so you can't aim for an individual target with them, you always aim for a hex and a barrier may block LoS to individual targets in a hex, the hex may still be visible and if the barrier is just a high wall, you can lob a grenade over the wall (this could be fun if the lob fails and land short). A grenade launcher can do direct damage but can of course also be used to target a hex, here you do the same, you target the hex which you can see.

If you can't see the hex because the target hex is two hexes away (for example) and the high barrier is in the hex between you and the target hex, then you need someone that aims for you.
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Vcutter
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Re: Throwing "Blind"

Sun 04 Jun 2023, 12:03

I too found this a bit unrealistic (pretty often grenades are used in situations where you do not have a los to target.)
I use the p65 rule of full cover "Firing at a target in full cover can be done, with a –3 modifier, if the Referee rules that the attacker knows the approximate location of the target."

So I allow throwing with -3. And deviation does not necessarily mean you missed: you hit the exact hex you thought they were in but they weren't.
Unofficial, but hasn't broken the game for me.
 
Rolando
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Re: Throwing "Blind"

Sun 04 Jun 2023, 15:51

I too found this a bit unrealistic (pretty often grenades are used in situations where you do not have a los to target.)
I use the p65 rule of full cover "Firing at a target in full cover can be done, with a –3 modifier, if the Referee rules that the attacker knows the approximate location of the target."

So I allow throwing with -3. And deviation does not necessarily mean you missed: you hit the exact hex you thought they were in but they weren't.
Unofficial, but hasn't broken the game for me.
And makes a lot more sense.
 
Raellus
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Re: Throwing "Blind"

Sun 04 Jun 2023, 23:53

I like that. Thanks.
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ckosacranoid
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Re: Throwing "Blind"

Mon 05 Jun 2023, 07:17

If nothing else close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, nukes, and the few flying outhouses.
 
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Ursus Maior
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Re: Throwing "Blind"

Mon 05 Jun 2023, 09:40

Hand Grenades (except for antitank) doesn't have direct damage (this table was part of the latest update regarding this) so you can't aim for an individual target with them, you always aim for a hex and a barrier may block LoS to individual targets in a hex, the hex may still be visible and if the barrier is just a high wall, you can lob a grenade over the wall (this could be fun if the lob fails and land short). A grenade launcher can do direct damage but can of course also be used to target a hex, here you do the same, you target the hex which you can see.

If you can't see the hex because the target hex is two hexes away (for example) and the high barrier is in the hex between you and the target hex, then you need someone that aims for you.
This might be something to solve with the new Close Quarters Combat rules from UrbOps: there are special rules for "firing blind" wit heavy weapons, even with hand grenades (p. 19).
You can’t hit a specific target, but the blast will affect everything in the target sector and the blast power is increased by one step indoors (page 16).
This is combined with the general rules on explosions (p. 19):
On a close quarters map, the blast power of an explosion in an indoor sector is increased one step (to a maximum of A). The blast does not continue beyond the detonation sector – except in the case of large rooms or corridors divided into several subsectors, in which the blast power is reduced one step for each subsector away from the blast.
liber & infractus
 
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CherryC0p
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Re: Throwing "Blind"

Wed 22 Nov 2023, 05:37

Sorry for Necroing a 5month old thread, but its the only one that seems to be discussing this topic. Has there really been no other discussion on grenades over a High barrier, or is this the best conclusion we got, that an attacker in same hex on the other side of a wall throwing the frag over is okay, but wall between two different hexes is a no-no?
Hand Grenades (except for antitank) doesn't have direct damage (this table was part of the latest update regarding this) so you can't aim for an individual target with them, you always aim for a hex and a barrier may block LoS to individual targets in a hex, the hex may still be visible and if the barrier is just a high wall, you can lob a grenade over the wall (this could be fun if the lob fails and land short). A grenade launcher can do direct damage but can of course also be used to target a hex, here you do the same, you target the hex which you can see.

If you can't see the hex because the target hex is two hexes away (for example) and the high barrier is in the hex between you and the target hex, then you need someone that aims for you.
Obviously UO has Blind Fire rules, but is "Over a Wall" the same as "through a doorway, breach or other aperture"? Getting close enough to the enemy that you can underhand a frag over a wall at them would imply to me that you're close enough to change the scale of combat to use Sectors instead of Hexes, thus "unlocking" (for lack of a better term) the Blind Fire rules from CQC in UO.

EDIT: After some more parsing through the rules, it would appear that RAW, "Cover" is a Terrain feature for hexes (page 57 Player Manual). If we count Cover as a Terrain Modifier (and Full cover does grant a -3 modifier to attacks at the Referee's discretion), then it would be ignored when targeting a hex with heavy weapons per the rules on page 71.

Full Disclosure, this is absolutely some bullshit rules lawyering lol, but without input from the designers, we don't really have much to go on for an answer to this question.
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