bfm75
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HK PSG-1, G11 and bullpops in general

Tue 30 May 2023, 08:50

Hi guys

I just kicked off my second Twilight 2K campaign and I'm really excited to do so!

I have a few comments/questions.

First off, in the version I have (kickstarter printing) the HK PSG-1 has a ROF of 1, but that can't be right. It was specifically developed as a semi-automatic rifle. It should have a ROF of 2, or am I missing something here?

Next, the G11 is not in the book and arguments could be makes tha Germany would be using the G36 family of rifles, but heck, it is an alternativ version of history and I think the G11 is really cool, so in my game Germany did adopt the G11. So how to handle it? Especially the Hyper-burst. I've seen some of Free League Workshop products given the G11 a free push on the ammo dice, uhmm kinda make sense, but I feel that this would slow down the game a bit. Perhaps a better approach would just be a flat +1 to hit when using the hyper-burst (using ROL of 3 or less), perhaps only up to medium range.

Bullpops in general are shorter and therefore easier to use in thigh quarters. So, I'm thinking be handled as Carbines, and perhaps make Bullpops a bit harder to reload, say a -1 or -2 to reloading?
 
paladin2019
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Re: HK PSG-1, G11 and bullpops in general

Tue 30 May 2023, 09:49

In the KS printing, a ROF 1 weapon must roll one ammo die per attack. Thus, The PSG-1 uses 1d6 rounds of ammo per attack and can score up to 2 hits.

Regarding the G-11, the first problem, one addressed narratively in other versions of the setting, is the lack of ammo. As its ammunition can't be reloaded, it is in pretty much the same place it was intended to be in. Only first-line panzergrenadiers were meant to be issued it and there wasn't that much ammo made as the men equipped with weren't expected to need a lot of resupply. The rest of the Bundeswehr would be equipped with G41, which use 5/56 NATO and, more significantly, AR-15 magazines, enabling an easy snaplink into US logistics. Of course, we know the reunification of Germany left major budgetary shortfalls and the G11 program was sacrificed on the altar of fiscal [strike]necessity[/strike] propriety. Given the timeline of the Twilight War, few units would have been equipped with the G36 before hostilities start in earnest, so even first-line units would still be using G3s using our timeline.

If propriety be damned, the G-11 could be treated as simply an M16 that divides the result of the ammo dice by 2. I think your general ideas on bullpups are sound, but as the G11's ammo is much more accessible, I don't think it should share the reloading penalty. For the first two reloads, at least.
 
bfm75
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Re: HK PSG-1, G11 and bullpops in general

Tue 30 May 2023, 10:41

Yeah, but the M21 and SVD-63 are both semi-automatic and in similar or the same caliber, and they both have a ROL of 2.

I think the idea of reducing the amount of ammo used in the G11 is good, but I think it would depended on how wide spread the G11 would be in the campaign. If it is super rare, ammo is hard to come by and it is impossible to repair/find spare parts for, then it would balance out it being significantly better then other ARs.
 
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Tegyrius
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Re: HK PSG-1, G11 and bullpops in general

Tue 30 May 2023, 14:03

My house rule for bullpups is to consider them to be carbine/SMG length for purposes of snap shots and attacks in the same hex (so a -1 penalty even though they have the range increments of full-length assault rifles). The offsetting penalty is that reloading always requires a slow action - the wielder can't make a Ranged Combat check to reload as a fast action. YMMV.

- C.
Clayton A. Oliver

Find my free Twilight: 2000 material and links to my published sourcebooks at http://www.de-fenestra.com/t2k/.

If you dislike change, you're going to dislike irrelevance even more.
- General Eric Shinseki
 
paladin2019
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Re: HK PSG-1, G11 and bullpops in general

Tue 30 May 2023, 20:21

The offsetting penalty is that reloading always requires a slow action - the wielder can't make a Ranged Combat check to reload as a fast action.
Some on this forum may have disagreements with that. And the G11 isn't configured like other bullpups, so such a consideration may not make sense anyway.
 
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Tegyrius
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Re: HK PSG-1, G11 and bullpops in general

Wed 31 May 2023, 01:07

Some on this forum may have disagreements with that. And the G11 isn't configured like other bullpups, so such a consideration may not make sense anyway.
*shrug* It works for my table. Some on this forum aren't at my table and can feel free to disagree to their heart's content.

- C.
Clayton A. Oliver

Find my free Twilight: 2000 material and links to my published sourcebooks at http://www.de-fenestra.com/t2k/.

If you dislike change, you're going to dislike irrelevance even more.
- General Eric Shinseki
 
Vcutter
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Re: HK PSG-1, G11 and bullpops in general

Wed 31 May 2023, 20:06

Never operated G11 but from what I gather from the vids the reload process does not seem to be the most ergonomical ever invented...:D
I usually approach these from purely gameplay perspective. If you give bullpups "carbine" status, which to me nicely emphasizes their shorter size, naturally it should be balanced.
Not being able to do fast reloads at all seems pretty harsh, especially since there is specialty focused on reloads and people like rolling dice to do "something better" and there mioght be cases where that fast reload roll really matters and brings tension to the table.
I would probably give -1 to reload to offset the advantage. Also might consider maintenance roll at -1, which could be said to represent the trigger mechanisms that in BPs are normally more complex than regular rifles. (But main thing here is that the -1 to reloads is not too crippling when weighted against the carbine thing).
And as for G11 maintenance... hard to tell how burning all that caseless stuff in the box really would affect things in the long run. Tests on a small batch are always tests after all.
 
paladin2019
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Re: HK PSG-1, G11 and bullpops in general

Wed 31 May 2023, 21:37

Never operated G11 but from what I gather from the vids the reload process does not seem to be the most ergonomical ever invented...:D
The final production model put a loaded and two spare magazines on top of the weapon, along the barrel. They are inserted into the mag well toward the shooter. Everything is in the shooter's field of view. Should be faster than trying to avoid jamming a mag into your armpit. ;)
 
Vcutter
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Re: HK PSG-1, G11 and bullpops in general

Wed 31 May 2023, 22:39

Yup. But it sure doesn't look too handy.
https://youtu.be/E_didDgUjn0?t=50
I mean compared to the roughly 1-2 seconds one can change M4 magazine I doubt G11 could compare simply due to mag size and how deep it needs to be inserted. Then again haven't seen many in the competitions that I have attended so hard to say for sure! :D
Edit: Of course G11 was done before the whole "tactical" thing took off and people actually started to optimize things like reloading techniques. But simply looking at the G11 magazines and spares on top of the barrel it is hard to think of a a fast "tactical" reload that could be done because the mag is inserted so deep into the gun.
Then again, in a TW game where round is 5-15 secs I guess anything goes anyway...
 
paladin2019
Posts: 434
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Re: HK PSG-1, G11 and bullpops in general

Wed 31 May 2023, 23:25

That's a horribly bumbling bit of weapons handling. I'm curious what the manual arms would have been if adopted.

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