welsh
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Joined: Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:53

Re: Thoughts about Medical Aid.

Sun 28 May 2023, 06:26

The question was, why is the baseline skill of using Medical Aid at zero negatives when using nothing but a ripped t-shirt and a prayer?
Well, yeah ... I wasn't very clear there. My point was, the medkit contains very little that can't be improvised, so I wouldn't see a need for a negative there.

But I would require something more than a medkit to heal, say, internal bleeding.
 
kcdusk
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Re: Thoughts about Medical Aid.

Mon 29 May 2023, 12:36

A reminder that there are a number of different med kits in the rule book.

Depending on the severity of the wound;
1. Personal med kit +1 medical rolls. Single use. I rule can be used for normal injuries like sprains, cuts up to bullet wound (not wounds). I’d rule you need one med kit per wound).

2. Doctors med kit +2 medical roll, for minor surgery and a number of doses of each drug. I rule a Drs med kit can treat sprains, cuts, wounds (multiple) and perhaps treat a critical wound with no positive modifier.

3. Surgical med kit +1 medical roll when treating fatal critical injuries. Can be combined with med kits. I’d rule this only applies to a critical injury or wound leading to death.

4. Antibiotics +3 medical roll. Lasts one day, for treating infected wounds. I’d rule antibiotics can be used AFTER medical kits have been used, ie in the process of recovery over coming days.

So pick the right tool/kit for the job. Weight/space that a Drs or Surgical med kit takes up might make them less portable also.
 
Vcutter
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Re: Thoughts about Medical Aid.

Mon 29 May 2023, 23:53

I guess the original question was that why is there no penalty if none of the above are used?
Then again the GM could impose the general modifiers (p.46 PM): Improvised equipment etc. if no medical gear is being used.
Then again some of the critical injuries, assuming you take them as they are and they fit the weapon that caused the damage, are a LOT more difficult to treat IRL then others. Punctured lung (torso 6) could be pretty much stopped from being lethal with duct tape basically but cracked spine (torso 7) or torn intestines (torso 8) are a different story.
That being said, it all comes down to balance between realism and "is it fun gameplaywise?"
This is ofc always up to the table. I personally prefer hefty negative modifiers simply due to diffiiculty of some injuries and those can be negated to a degree with appropriate medical equipment. But I would probably never just say "sorry you cannot roll, you don't have medical gear X available" if another character is suffering from a lethal wound.
 
Oddball_E8
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Re: Thoughts about Medical Aid.

Tue 30 May 2023, 08:01

I guess the original question was that why is there no penalty if none of the above are used?
That was indeed the question.

One of my players has A+B in Medical aid... so she'll just roll that and have a 79% (96% if pushed) chance of success... why ever use a medkit of any sort?
There's no point. She's a genius McGyver surgeon that'll use a stick and two leaves to treat a gunshot wound to the neck with no disadvantage to her roll. :/
 
Vcutter
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat 23 May 2020, 09:55

Re: Thoughts about Medical Aid.

Tue 30 May 2023, 11:48

Hit her with -1 because no equipment, -1 for sheer difficulty of the wound in question and another -1 for conditions that are not hygienic unless she sacrifices alcohol/doctors kit use.
-3 will turn her magic hands into C/C and that might make her reconsider use of resources.
 
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Viperion_NZ
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Re: Thoughts about Medical Aid.

Thu 01 Jun 2023, 10:11

Please don't penalise your players because they're good at something.
 
Oddball_E8
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Re: Thoughts about Medical Aid.

Thu 01 Jun 2023, 12:02

Please don't penalise your players because they're good at something.
I'm not.

I'm changing the system because it makes no sense.

This didn't come about because "my player is too good".

It came about because it makes no sense to have a positive modifier on something that should be a necessity when performing the task.

Take vehicles and spare parts, for example. Doesn't matter how good of a mechanic you are in this system, you still can't fix everything without spare parts.
I'd say you need tools too, but I think this is an issue with the game mentality.

Basically, in this game you can do *anything* as long as you have skills.

It's the fact that nothing but the skill is needed to do things. The only examples I can come up with that actually require something is firing a weapon (requires weapon and ammo) and fixing a vehicle (requires parts).

But you can perform brain surgery in the woods without tools, because all that matters is the skill.

Every player seems to be McGyver... but better, since they don't even need a twig, some gum and a lighter... they just need their skill.
 
Vcutter
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat 23 May 2020, 09:55

Re: Thoughts about Medical Aid.

Thu 01 Jun 2023, 12:13

It's not even against RAW Oddball, if you think about it:
PM p. 44 "When you perform an action, you first describe what your character does or says".
Imho "I perform brain surgery without any medical equipment" is grounds enough for saying it cannot be done.:D
I don't think any player would disagree with that call.
Then again it would be hard to describe brain surgery if one is not a brain surgeon... so we cannot expect 100% accurate depiction of actions. Still I'd say you are absolutely right in requesting equipment for some actions which obviously require them. What is "enough" when it comes to level of describing actions really is up to the table.
One could even go so far as to require specialty as per the optional rule on p.49. Also the negative modifiers (unfamiliar equipment) etc. can be taken into play like I mentioned before.
Imo that is more than enough knobs and dials to turn if one wants to make some medical actions more difficult. Game should never evolve into "I use my MEDICAL AID skill!" but then again that is just my take on how rpgs should be played.
 
Oddball_E8
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Re: Thoughts about Medical Aid.

Fri 02 Jun 2023, 21:52

That's the issue, though.

My player isn't a trained medical personnel.
Neither am I.

So, how would either of us judge whether something is possible or not?

Sure, brain surgery in a swamp with nothing but sticks is not gonna happen.

But anything in between? How the hell would they know? And how the hell would I?

It's far easier to just say "if you use medical aid without the proper equipment, you get a -2 to the roll", instead of "hey, if you want to fix that shattered elbow you're gonna need to come up with a medical explanation as to how you're doing that with the materials at hand". Because neither of us would know how to fix a shattered elbow even if we had the proper equipment in real life. So how are they going to describe it in any believable way?
 
Vcutter
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat 23 May 2020, 09:55

Re: Thoughts about Medical Aid.

Sun 04 Jun 2023, 12:24

So, how would either of us judge whether something is possible or not?
Well first of all remember, that the critical hits themselves are not written in stone. The referee is supposed to color and determine the damage based on the actual thing that caused it. Only the mechanical effects are the same. Take example of military grade barbed wire: moving across it and failing gives automatic critical roll to legs. A player has a bad day and he rolls a 10: Severed leg.
Really? Like he stumbled on the wire and in panic tore off his own leg? The barbs biting through bone and sinew all the way? Probably not. Probably something else, yet as severe, happened.
So you will probably describe just how his leg is so tangled in the wire that is biting through it and causing severe bleeding and permanent nerve damage. (And tbh even that is stretching it, but wanted to give extreme example of low level damage causing a crit. A broken bottle probably won't severe an arm either or get anyones brains blown out but it can kill and cause pretty bad damage)

So if you think about it, whether or not a "cracked hip" needs a surgery kit or doctor's medical kit or anything is not relevant, what you as a referee say is needed to mend it goes. Common sense and "TV -medicine" goes a long way.
That being said if you want guidelines, if the wound is lethal I'd usually set a requirement of surgical kit to HEAL it. If doctors kit is also used, I'd give bonuses. For STABILIZATION purposes I probably would require only doctors medical kit.
Then again first aid TO STABILIZE for punctured lung can be given okayish with plastic cling wrap and duct tape. Perhaps you could give bonuses to players who know some stuff like this (even if from movies) and can give colourful descriptions on how they "McGuyver" it?
So summary
To stabilize lethal wound: Doctors kit (drugs, clamps, better bandages etc.) Sometimes personal medical kit might be used instead, especially if the wound is described to consist mostly of bleeding or gash os slash etc.
To heal a critical wound: Surgery kit most of the time. Needed to fix things gone the wrong way. Sometimes doctors medical kit might be used too. Perhaps give bonus if both are? If you want to get more realistic use of alcohol to disinfect might give a bonus too and eat up players resources.
To do recovery (0 health): No requirements, personal medkit to give a bonus. Doctors kit to give more bonus.

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