sgt
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat 26 Dec 2020, 21:37

Re: PCs too rich early on - What to do?

Sat 20 May 2023, 13:45

Answering to no one in particular...

...it would really make sense that "resources are scarce" but weapons not so much, but the Player's Handbook makes it hard to sell this to the players. Domestic food is priced at 10 bullets for a day's ration and an AK-74 is worth 400 bullets. This would mean that with a single looted AK you could get 40 days of food. My players are looking at these numbers, which I assume have already been scaled to the scarce Twilight world, when they enter a city or even a village for bartering.
 
Pyske
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed 12 Apr 2023, 21:59

Re: PCs too rich early on - What to do?

Sat 20 May 2023, 15:50

Answering to no one in particular...

...it would really make sense that "resources are scarce" but weapons not so much, but the Player's Handbook makes it hard to sell this to the players. Domestic food is priced at 10 bullets for a day's ration and an AK-74 is worth 400 bullets. This would mean that with a single looted AK you could get 40 days of food. My players are looking at these numbers, which I assume have already been scaled to the scarce Twilight world, when they enter a city or even a village for bartering.
Those numbers make some sense to me, since converting an AK and some ammo into food for 40 days seems pretty feasible, and I'd expect an AK to last far longer than food.

So if you need one, I could see it being worth that. But that doesn't mean you need another one 40 days from now, while you will need more food.
 
Mahatatain
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon 22 Feb 2021, 17:26

Re: PCs too rich early on - What to do?

Sat 20 May 2023, 19:54

So, how do you guys run this? Any suggestions as how to do this in a satisfying way, both to get the tone right and still have the game seem plausible?
If you're PCs have too much gear then I'd suggest that you get them into a firefight where they are outgunned and have to withdraw. That will "cost" them a load of ammo without recovering anything valuable. Additionally, if their vehicle gets damaged/destroyed then that also knocks back their resources.
 
Oddball_E8
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: PCs too rich early on - What to do?

Sat 20 May 2023, 19:55

Answering to no one in particular...

...it would really make sense that "resources are scarce" but weapons not so much, but the Player's Handbook makes it hard to sell this to the players. Domestic food is priced at 10 bullets for a day's ration and an AK-74 is worth 400 bullets. This would mean that with a single looted AK you could get 40 days of food. My players are looking at these numbers, which I assume have already been scaled to the scarce Twilight world, when they enter a city or even a village for bartering.
Those numbers make some sense to me, since converting an AK and some ammo into food for 40 days seems pretty feasible, and I'd expect an AK to last far longer than food.

So if you need one, I could see it being worth that. But that doesn't mean you need another one 40 days from now, while you will need more food.
Actually, they make zero sense to me.

Because most people don't have 40 days worth of food lying around (also, 40 days worth of domestic food is useless after a week, since they expire after a week).
Also, if you *did* have that much food, you're probably already armed to the teeth, or someone else with a gun would take that food from you.
So, why do you need another AK?
Further more, why would you trade 40 days of food for an AK? I mean, unless you have hundreds of days worth of food just lying around, you wouldn't trade the one thing you need to live for something that you can't eat.
Unless you intend to shoot a bunch of people with that AK to get more food, but then... why do that if you already have 40 days worth of food?

You see the issue here?

No, I see the "prices" of the items in the book as an indication of what the players are expected to pay if they want that item, not what that item is worth to others.

You want an AK? You'll have to trade something like 2 pump-action shotguns or maybe 4 binoculars for that... if the dealer is dumb enough to do a fair trade.

I think people are too hung up on seeing the value of items as a dollar value and just doing straight comparisons as if you give the guy an AK, he gives you 400 dollars and then you turn around and by 400 dollars worth of food for that.

Just tell your players that the value on the items in the rulebook are there to indicate how much *they* have to pay for that item, not what it's worth to the average villager.
 
Mr Oldtimer
Topic Author
Posts: 388
Joined: Sun 14 Apr 2019, 12:01

Re: PCs too rich early on - What to do?

Sat 20 May 2023, 23:49

Actually, that's a nice way of explaining the price. Since I mainly play this game online, there's no hiding the price for my players but this way of explaining the price actually makes sence. Thank you.
 
Mr Oldtimer
Topic Author
Posts: 388
Joined: Sun 14 Apr 2019, 12:01

Re: PCs too rich early on - What to do?

Sat 20 May 2023, 23:58

So, how do you guys run this? Any suggestions as how to do this in a satisfying way, both to get the tone right and still have the game seem plausible?
If you're PCs have too much gear then I'd suggest that you get them into a firefight where they are outgunned and have to withdraw. That will "cost" them a load of ammo without recovering anything valuable. Additionally, if their vehicle gets damaged/destroyed then that also knocks back their resources.
A nice thought. Problem is, my players rarely flee, and if they do, it's usually before the encounter even begin. Most encounters are too short to give the feeling of "we probably shouldn't be here" and if one or two PCs go down, the others won't leave them behind. I've tried this a few times, in different games, and it usually fails. Players don't like to flee and if the encounter is hard enough, it's more likely to result in a TPK. Also, short of sending MBTs at them, my players lack the knowledge of modern era weapons anf vehicles to actually be affraid of anything smaller than a MBT. To be fair, they are usually right. A single BTR or APC armed with anything less than 30 mm auto cannon usually don't pose that big a threat to a group of PCs. At least, if I don't boost the gunners quite a bit, because standard NPCs can't shoot straight in this game.
I appreciate you taking your time to answer though.
 
Oddball_E8
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: PCs too rich early on - What to do?

Sun 21 May 2023, 01:04

Actually, that's a nice way of explaining the price. Since I mainly play this game online, there's no hiding the price for my players but this way of explaining the price actually makes sence. Thank you.
Yeah, I don't hid the price from my players either (they have free access to the player handbook after all), but I instructed them to ignore the price.
 
Heffe
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri 14 Aug 2020, 19:32

Re: PCs too rich early on - What to do?

Mon 22 May 2023, 20:10

So, how do you guys run this? Any suggestions as how to do this in a satisfying way, both to get the tone right and still have the game seem plausible?
If you're PCs have too much gear then I'd suggest that you get them into a firefight where they are outgunned and have to withdraw. That will "cost" them a load of ammo without recovering anything valuable. Additionally, if their vehicle gets damaged/destroyed then that also knocks back their resources.
A nice thought. Problem is, my players rarely flee, and if they do, it's usually before the encounter even begin. Most encounters are too short to give the feeling of "we probably shouldn't be here" and if one or two PCs go down, the others won't leave them behind. I've tried this a few times, in different games, and it usually fails. Players don't like to flee and if the encounter is hard enough, it's more likely to result in a TPK. Also, short of sending MBTs at them, my players lack the knowledge of modern era weapons anf vehicles to actually be affraid of anything smaller than a MBT. To be fair, they are usually right. A single BTR or APC armed with anything less than 30 mm auto cannon usually don't pose that big a threat to a group of PCs. At least, if I don't boost the gunners quite a bit, because standard NPCs can't shoot straight in this game.
I appreciate you taking your time to answer though.
Honestly, you need to impress upon your players that this isn't like other RPGs, and player deaths can and do happen. I'm not saying you should TPK your group by any means, but the odd player should be occasionally dying in T2k. If a single BTR isn't enough to make them run, perhaps due to AT equipment, then perhaps 4 of them, backed up by a platoon or more of infantry support, will. If they're stubborn enough to want to take that on and try to continue the fight even after losing a player or two, well then if a TPK happens then that's on them.
 
Mr Oldtimer
Topic Author
Posts: 388
Joined: Sun 14 Apr 2019, 12:01

Re: PCs too rich early on - What to do?

Mon 22 May 2023, 22:41


If you're PCs have too much gear then I'd suggest that you get them into a firefight where they are outgunned and have to withdraw. That will "cost" them a load of ammo without recovering anything valuable. Additionally, if their vehicle gets damaged/destroyed then that also knocks back their resources.
A nice thought. Problem is, my players rarely flee, and if they do, it's usually before the encounter even begin. Most encounters are too short to give the feeling of "we probably shouldn't be here" and if one or two PCs go down, the others won't leave them behind. I've tried this a few times, in different games, and it usually fails. Players don't like to flee and if the encounter is hard enough, it's more likely to result in a TPK. Also, short of sending MBTs at them, my players lack the knowledge of modern era weapons anf vehicles to actually be affraid of anything smaller than a MBT. To be fair, they are usually right. A single BTR or APC armed with anything less than 30 mm auto cannon usually don't pose that big a threat to a group of PCs. At least, if I don't boost the gunners quite a bit, because standard NPCs can't shoot straight in this game.
I appreciate you taking your time to answer though.
Honestly, you need to impress upon your players that this isn't like other RPGs, and player deaths can and do happen. I'm not saying you should TPK your group by any means, but the odd player should be occasionally dying in T2k. If a single BTR isn't enough to make them run, perhaps due to AT equipment, then perhaps 4 of them, backed up by a platoon or more of infantry support, will. If they're stubborn enough to want to take that on and try to continue the fight even after losing a player or two, well then if a TPK happens then that's on them.
Thank you for your input. So, I've alreade used this kind of encounter against them, for exampel right from the start when I was hoping for them feeling overwhelmed and want to flee Kaliz/Örebro. One ATRL and 2 sniper rifles is apparently enough to devastate 3 BTRs and 2 BMPs... :)
Now, we're quite used to the Free League kind of game, all of them being more deadly than, let's say DND. Problem is, gunners in this game usually don't have the stats like PCs do. The average enemy soldier having B in heavy weapons and B+C in ranged, making my players rushing through the enemy lines, rather than taking cover and still succeeding. Well, if they don't pick enemies off from sniper positions hundreds of meters away. They just don't feel threatened unless I bog down the map with dozens of enemies and vehicles. And then again, reading the referee manual, the typical batalion seems to have one or two vehicles in working order. Sure, if an enemy force gets the location of the PCs and really wants them dead, they could assemble what resources they have left but for random encounters? I feel I don't want to have that many heavy vehicles just roaming around. Then fuel would have to be much easier to come by, than I'm making it.
Then again. I still think I can, and do, challenge them in the encounters. I don't use the standard soldier for gunner or driver positions any more... Or for soldiers using GPMGs. My main problem was the ammount of gear they got hold of early in the game.
But you're right. The opposition has to be there, in greater numbers or gear. Preferably gear that can drive away if the encounter goes the PCs way or they will come out even stronger. Next time I'm going to run for a smaller group. 6 PCs was way too much firepower for a player group.
 
welsh
Posts: 200
Joined: Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:53

Re: PCs too rich early on - What to do?

Tue 23 May 2023, 01:22

So, in the past week or so, we've had one thread from a GM whose PCs are at death's door and unable to catch a break, and another from a GM whose PCs are waltzing through Poland as if on vacation, taking called shots at NPCs' arms because the players have figured out how to exploit an optional rule. It's not too hard to see where the problem lies here.

The PCs are a small party of soldiers cut off from friendly forces. They are without resupply and their force is too small to provide for its own protection. They ought to be running scared and avoiding contact. If they aren't, then it's on you to put the fear of God into them.
Problem is, my players rarely flee ... if the encounter is hard enough, it's more likely to result in a TPK. Also, short of sending MBTs at them, my players lack the knowledge of modern era weapons anf vehicles to actually be affraid of anything smaller than a MBT.
To limit the loot, you could try the inverse, which was my suggestion to have the NPC party break contact, so you have fewer decisive engagements for the amount of ammo your PCs expend. If parties of 10 - 15 NPCs are incapable of breaking contact before the PCs kill them all, I suggest playing the NPCs as if they have some tactical sense. Why did the NPCs set up a position without a covered withdrawal route?

Also, if the players don't have the sense to avoid or break contact with forces that clearly outgun them, then give them fair warning. If they fail to heed it, TPK them.
One ATRL and 2 sniper rifles is apparently enough to devastate 3 BTRs and 2 BMPs...
How much ammunition did they have for that ATRL? And after the first round from that ATRL, why wasn't every weapon firing at it to suppress the gunner? If the PCs fire an anti-tank weapon, both remaining BTRs ought to be dumping 6 ammo dice on it, both BMPs will be firing at it, and that gunner ought to be reconsidering his choices even if they all somehow manage to miss.

From another thread:
For called head shots, I rule mook NPCs don't get to roll CUF at all and are automatically supressed. That way, the PCs are willing to take the -2 and aim for the head, even if the target has a helmet. Otherwise they always aim for the arms, because of no armor and they know a crit will incapacitate the NPCs anyway.
Suppression is powerful. Why are you making it automatic? If your players are gaming the system by aiming for the arms, knowing a crit takes down an NPC, stop using that optional rule. The NPC combat rules exist to make life easier for the GM. They're optional and should be discarded where they cause balance problems. I don't use automatic suppression, I give NPCs group morale, and if my players started going for the arms to get crits I would penalize the ever-loving &^%* out of that behavior because there is a reason armies do not train soldiers to aim at the arms. The arm is a tiny target and you can only aim at one out of two.

I know this will come off as harsh, but it's hard not to be. You say you have no difficulty making things hard on your players, but at the same time you deal with them gaming the system by making more realistic behaviour easier, instead of by making gaming the system harder.

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