Pelhle
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Re: Anyone else is dissapointed with TWD RPG?

Tue 16 May 2023, 20:18

Going back to comparisons with other FL games - comparing it to games from totally different genres is a bit unfair - by necessity, a game set further from our own contemporary world (the far future or in a fantasy world) need to have much more setting material than a game set in our world in the present day. Blade Runner and Alien need that fluff because they are both in the future and the main touchpoints people have (the films) only briefly touch on the wider world outside their plots. So here in TWD, we don't need a ton of background. The core rulebook is designed to provide a framework to tell sandbox stories in any location in the apocalypse in today's world, so there's really no need to provide a lot on TWD history. Characters from the show are mentioned more as Easter eggs than playable NPCs. That said, I suspect the Starter Set may have much more in the way of traditional game "fluff" (since we know that show characters were made into pregens), but I still don't see what is missing in the core rulebook other than some encyclopedic lore that simply isn't needed.
Said better than I ever could!
Me too
 
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Re: Anyone else is dissapointed with TWD RPG?

Wed 17 May 2023, 01:54

I just finished reading cover to cover and one disappointment kept rearing its head every time.

More...

There needs to be more. The foundation is rock solid. I like the character creation, I like the combat, I like Walkers and Walker combat, I like whats on offer here. But it needs more, much more. I feel like I was given a toolbox and only half the tools are there or I was given poor quality tools. The worst part is these tools already exist in other Year Zero games. Just put them in this book. Let me be more specific.

160 pages is too little content. What is here is pretty good but it barely scratches the surface. One main section needs a overhaul and that's the Haven. Its too abstract. We don't need to get into the weeds with details but I need a clear list of projects with clear mechanical benefits for completing them. Look at Forbidden Lands' Stronghold system. More Projects should be listed in the book. The Example section is too small (8!) and they shouldn't be examples. A full clean useful list should be added with the option of making your own projects that may not already be included. You can rate projects between short term and long term benefits but this needs to be meatier. To use a Video Game example, look at State of Decay. The base system is exactly what should be inspiration for what should be here. This is one example where there is too much onus on the GM making up projects on the fly with not enough support from the book. I'm paying for the book, give me more things I can just pluck from the pages and drop in my game.

Another major criticism is the lack of a scenario in THIS book. Don't point to the Starter Set, Heck don't point to the Atlanta Setting. Alien RPG had Hope's Last Day in the book, and Chariots of the Gods in the Starter Set, Tales from the Loop had 4(!) Scenarios in the Corebook and 1 in the Starter Set, and Vaesen had The Dance of Dreams with no Starter Set. One can be in this book and another in the Stater Set. Not having something I can see as an example in the book is not something I can accept as a consumer and neither should anyone here.

And Let's not forget about the Factions. We get 2 examples and then a bunch of meager tables for making our own. These can be GREATLY expanded, providing many more options. There should be a D66 table for each option, not just a d6. And the examples, Why not add more, Why not flesh them out more? A little over Half a Page each is not enough. You should have at least 8 fully detailed Factions that take up 2 pages each. The tables are for coming up for something on the fly, I wouldn't expect them to be grand from the tables alone but the Publisher created factions? I should be able to run campaigns with them, without too much work. Again something I should be able to Pluck out and build off of, right out of the book.

A pair of minor Criticisms (that relate to lack of content) is that 1. Talents are a little light and the prerequisites seem a bit silly (Fighting Dirty needs me to kill someone with my bare hands? What?) and 2. The random tables in the game are sparse. I would rather have a more fleshed out Table system that gives me much more choices for inspiration and that are a little more specific and split between more tables. Lethal Injuries needs to be separated by Blunt and Sharp weapons because some of those make no sense depending on context. These tables basically already exist in Forbidden lands (just clean them up for a modern setting) so just put them in the book. Staying on the tables. I'd like to see more specific loot based on type of building vs that big scavenging table in the book. Examples are, Homes (Single and Multi Floor), Offices, Schools, Police Stations, Fire Stations, Hospitals, Supermarkets, Malls, etc. A d66 on each location is more useful and more immersive vs a giant generic scavenging table.

I'm also critical of the Mess Up system. Ideas for mess ups are slim pickings and can easily remedied by making a number of Mishap Tables to help with greasing the wheels. Again this is something that feels too expected of the GM to come up with, when having much more tables in the book would fix.

A major criticism is also the traveling rules. These can be expanded so much more with so many more random events based on the terrain being traveled thru. Tables specific to things like, Cities, Suburbs, Towns, Woods, Hills, Mountains, Swamps etc. A lot of these things already exist in Twilight 2000 so why can't they be transplanted here?

I know that most people are going to say that The Walking Dead is more Narrative First, etc, etc but the point of all of the above is to provide a TOOLBOX to build on to make more drama in the character's story. I need more tools, in this book. I shouldn't HAVE to take all of these things from Free Leagues other games. They should be right here, in the corebook, ready for me to pluck out and use in my game. 160 is too small and I expect more from Free League. More MEAT does not mean more Crunch. They are options. Options to either roll for or pick from a list. I know not everyone agrees with me but this comes from someone who owns almost everything Free League has put out. You guys are better then this.
 
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Re: Anyone else is dissapointed with TWD RPG?

Wed 17 May 2023, 02:46

I just finished reading cover to cover and one disappointment kept rearing its head every time.

More...

There needs to be more. The foundation is rock solid. I like the character creation, I like the combat, I like Walkers and Walker combat, I like whats on offer here. But it needs more, much more. I feel like I was given a toolbox and only half the tools are there or I was given poor quality tools. The worst part is these tools already exist in other Year Zero games. Just put them in this book. Let me be more specific.

160 pages is too little content. What is here is pretty good but it barely scratches the surface. One main section needs a overhaul and that's the Haven. Its too abstract. We don't need to get into the weeds with details but I need a clear list of projects with clear mechanical benefits for completing them. Look at Forbidden Lands' Stronghold system. More Projects should be listed in the book. The Example section is too small (8!) and they shouldn't be examples. A full clean useful list should be added with the option of making your own projects that may not already be included. You can rate projects between short term and long term benefits but this needs to be meatier. To use a Video Game example, look at State of Decay. The base system is exactly what should be inspiration for what should be here. This is one example where there is too much onus on the GM making up projects on the fly with not enough support from the book. I'm paying for the book, give me more things I can just pluck from the pages and drop in my game.

Another major criticism is the lack of a scenario in THIS book. Don't point to the Starter Set, Heck don't point to the Atlanta Setting. Alien RPG had Hope's Last Day in the book, and Chariots of the Gods in the Starter Set, Tales from the Loop had 4(!) Scenarios in the Corebook and 1 in the Starter Set, and Vaesen had The Dance of Dreams with no Starter Set. One can be in this book and another in the Stater Set. Not having something I can see as an example in the book is not something I can accept as a consumer and neither should anyone here.

And Let's not forget about the Factions. We get 2 examples and then a bunch of meager tables for making our own. These can be GREATLY expanded, providing many more options. There should be a D66 table for each option, not just a d6. And the examples, Why not add more, Why not flesh them out more? A little over Half a Page each is not enough. You should have at least 8 fully detailed Factions that take up 2 pages each. The tables are for coming up for something on the fly, I wouldn't expect them to be grand from the tables alone but the Publisher created factions? I should be able to run campaigns with them, without too much work. Again something I should be able to Pluck out and build off of, right out of the book.

A pair of minor Criticisms (that relate to lack of content) is that 1. Talents are a little light and the prerequisites seem a bit silly (Fighting Dirty needs me to kill someone with my bare hands? What?) and 2. The random tables in the game are sparse. I would rather have a more fleshed out Table system that gives me much more choices for inspiration and that are a little more specific and split between more tables. Lethal Injuries needs to be separated by Blunt and Sharp weapons because some of those make no sense depending on context. These tables basically already exist in Forbidden lands (just clean them up for a modern setting) so just put them in the book. Staying on the tables. I'd like to see more specific loot based on type of building vs that big scavenging table in the book. Examples are, Homes (Single and Multi Floor), Offices, Schools, Police Stations, Fire Stations, Hospitals, Supermarkets, Malls, etc. A d66 on each location is more useful and more immersive vs a giant generic scavenging table.

I'm also critical of the Mess Up system. Ideas for mess ups are slim pickings and can easily remedied by making a number of Mishap Tables to help with greasing the wheels. Again this is something that feels too expected of the GM to come up with, when having much more tables in the book would fix.

A major criticism is also the traveling rules. These can be expanded so much more with so many more random events based on the terrain being traveled thru. Tables specific to things like, Cities, Suburbs, Towns, Woods, Hills, Mountains, Swamps etc. A lot of these things already exist in Twilight 2000 so why can't they be transplanted here?

I know that most people are going to say that The Walking Dead is more Narrative First, etc, etc but the point of all of the above is to provide a TOOLBOX to build on to make more drama in the character's story. I need more tools, in this book. I shouldn't HAVE to take all of these things from Free Leagues other games. They should be right here, in the corebook, ready for me to pluck out and use in my game. 160 is too small and I expect more from Free League. More MEAT does not mean more Crunch. They are options. Options to either roll for or pick from a list. I know not everyone agrees with me but this comes from someone who owns almost everything Free League has put out. You guys are better then this.
After reading the 160 pages, I must say that i agree with all of the above. I love light rules, but this is really too thin. Havens, factions, weapons, the Atlanta setting(ouch...this is really super light!), a lot of the subjects feel unfinished, like a draft with a couple of good ideas. Not enough meat. And the no scenario is really bugging me, i am not one to write my own, so for the moment...Too much work for me to put in to make it playable with my group.
 
leandro1010
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Re: Anyone else is dissapointed with TWD RPG?

Wed 17 May 2023, 03:01

100% Agree with UndeadDomain
 
Alphadork
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Re: Anyone else is dissapointed with TWD RPG?

Wed 17 May 2023, 04:50

Pleased overall with TWD, but a bit disappointed with the current state of Factions and Havens

For Factions expected to see something akin to the scenario sites in Twilight 2000, which provided great sandboxes to play in

For Havens hoped the rules would a bit meatier with more suggestions for improvements, resource gathering to create them and related issues. Vaesen base construction is a good template

TWD is close to being great, which is a bit of a let down given Free League's stellar track record of near perfect RPGs
 
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Tomas
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Re: Anyone else is dissapointed with TWD RPG?

Wed 17 May 2023, 10:17

I know that KS products cannot be refunded, and at some point, I can sell the RPG to someone else. But I fell completely dumb on paying Special Editin price for a rule book when is actually just a hard cover notebook. THAT is a scam.
Absolutely not a scam in any way. And if the game is not what you expected, we can absolutely get you a refund - just reach out to support@frialigan.se and we'll take care of it.
Fria Ligan
 
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Re: Anyone else is dissapointed with TWD RPG?

Wed 17 May 2023, 10:52

I know that KS products cannot be refunded, and at some point, I can sell the RPG to someone else. But I fell completely dumb on paying Special Editin price for a rule book when is actually just a hard cover notebook. THAT is a scam.
Absolutely not a scam in any way. And if the game is not what you expected, we can absolutely get you a refund - just reach out to support@frialigan.se and we'll take care of it.
I'm sure it can be frustrating reading the feedback we've been putting out, but moving so quick to offer the refunds feels like we aren't being heard. I won't speak for the others but I am a major fan of Free League, and love everything you put out. I especially love the stuff you directly worked on, Tomas, like Forbidden Lands, T2K, and Alien. The books that I just got from the last Forbidden Lands KS are *chef's kiss* amazing. Please seriously consider our criticisms. I'm starting to see repeated words in responses like "Bloated page count" and "compact layout" as if it explains away the criticisms. It does not. Your company has put out masterpiece after masterpiece, please just make sure that Walking Dead get its opportunity to be another masterpiece. Thank you for everything you do.
 
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Re: Anyone else is dissapointed with TWD RPG?

Wed 17 May 2023, 11:38

I'm sure it can be frustrating reading the feedback we've been putting out, but moving so quick to offer the refunds feels like we aren't being heard. I won't speak for the others but I am a major fan of Free League, and love everything you put out. I especially love the stuff you directly worked on, Tomas, like Forbidden Lands, T2K, and Alien. The books that I just got from the last Forbidden Lands KS are *chef's kiss* amazing. Please seriously consider our criticisms. I'm starting to see repeated words in responses like "Bloated page count" and "compact layout" as if it explains away the criticisms. It does not. Your company has put out masterpiece after masterpiece, please just make sure that Walking Dead get its opportunity to be another masterpiece. Thank you for everything you do.
-----
I can assure you that we are listening, and we are taking your comments to heart. I can also assure you that most of what has been discussed here has also been discussed at length during the whole design and playtesting process. What you see in the Beta is the outcome of such discussions - it is how we respond to the question that's been guiding us all along: "what is needed for gaming groups to be able to tell their stories in The Walking Dead Universe," reminiscing of the stories we know and love from the TV shows.
We will now let your comments, big and small, fuel our continued work on getting the Core Book ready for print. However, I hope you and others accept that we reserve the right to decide what actions need to be taken. Some of you will probably not agree with our decisions, which is sad but virtually unavoidable. And, like Tomas said, for you who end up feeling cheated or disappointed, there is always the option to ask for a refund - nothing strange about that!
 
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Tomas
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Re: Anyone else is dissapointed with TWD RPG?

Wed 17 May 2023, 11:45

I know that KS products cannot be refunded, and at some point, I can sell the RPG to someone else. But I fell completely dumb on paying Special Editin price for a rule book when is actually just a hard cover notebook. THAT is a scam.
Absolutely not a scam in any way. And if the game is not what you expected, we can absolutely get you a refund - just reach out to support@frialigan.se and we'll take care of it.
I'm sure it can be frustrating reading the feedback we've been putting out, but moving so quick to offer the refunds feels like we aren't being heard. I won't speak for the others but I am a major fan of Free League, and love everything you put out. I especially love the stuff you directly worked on, Tomas, like Forbidden Lands, T2K, and Alien. The books that I just got from the last Forbidden Lands KS are *chef's kiss* amazing. Please seriously consider our criticisms. I'm starting to see repeated words in responses like "Bloated page count" and "compact layout" as if it explains away the criticisms. It does not. Your company has put out masterpiece after masterpiece, please just make sure that Walking Dead get its opportunity to be another masterpiece. Thank you for everything you do.
Oh, we're absolutely listening to the feedback. My comment about the refund was directed to the comment that you can't get refunds on Kickstarters. That's just wrong - you absolutely can.
Fria Ligan
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Anyone else is dissapointed with TWD RPG?

Wed 17 May 2023, 12:08

My view is that it is pretty much exactly what I expected. But I am a bit bias here, I know. I have played three campaigns of core MYZ, a game with a similar game style and those campaigns probably have been the best campaigns I have played in the last 10 years. Sure, the sandbox open world campaign style where the campaign, with factions and goals are built up as you play along, by the GM but also by the players, is not for everyone. Some players prefer to play one scenario/adventure after another and some players don't like the responsibility to be part of the campaign creation (and some GM probably don't like to let the players in on it). I am a bit surprised by the low page count though, but the books contains everything you need (I would have loved to have some more factions and locations, that wouldn't have hurt).

edit: One thing that I just realized is that since the idea of this game is very similar to MYZ, I guess thanks to this game, a MYZ 2E is very far away, sadly.
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