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Totally hijacking this support/publishing thread for grenade discussion
(I'm sure mods can split it as separate though).
TBH I never used the "direct damage" for thrown grenades to begin with since it seemed weird. One could of course argue that even in a 10 meter hex there is a difference if a grenade goes off right at your feet or 6-10 meters away but still.
But the damage of 0 of th eexplosion seems a bit low. I understand that the suppression and knockback themselves make grenades still ok, they are probably more important than the damage in many cases. That being said now a frag can cause a max of 2 points of damage which seems a bit low. Making it do a base of 2 point, with additional 0-2 points from the rolls wouldn't make them too powerful imo.

Moderator Action: I extracted this from the support thread.

The challenge seems to be related to the blast radius of a grenade compared to the size of an actual hex. The way our group handled grenade direct damage previously was by allowing for the -2 modifier when making a direct attack, i.e. landing a grenade right at the target's feet, thereby allowing the application of the direct damage on top of the splash damage.

The other issue here is that there's a sentence under Heavy Weapons that states the following:
"Also, when targeting a hex, any extra [successes] on the attack roll have no effect."

When combined, that means that as you say, a thrown grenade will only ever do a maximum of 2 points of damage.

I wonder if a "random location inside the hex" rule might be warranted, either house rule or otherwise. Say you roll a 1d3 when throwing a grenade. A 1 means only blast damage due to the grenade landing on the other side of the hex. A 2 would mean 1 direct damage. And a 3 would mean 2 direct damage due to the grenade landing right at the target's feet.

"Also, when targeting a hex, any extra [successes] on the attack roll have no effect."

Damn I totally missed that too.
Meh. I'm gonna houserule that they do 2 points and give extra damage on extra hits, crit 4. A case could be made that the outer hex (Blast D) would be 0 base damage, if one wanted to get into details.
I am still wondering why the grenade nerf. I can understand removing the direct damage but damage of 0-2 is pretty weak.

Hand grenades are not meant to kill anyone, just to injure them. A hand grenade has 14% chance of doing 3 damage (and causing a crit) and 61% chance of doing 2 damage (not bad in a world where people on the average can take 4,5 damage before going down) and It will cause suppression and knock the target prone regardless if it caused damage or not and that is to everyone in the 10m hex. Also remember that indoor explosions (Urban Ops rule) will cause any explosion to go up one level so a hand grenade will cause a B explosion and that can be very lethal.

Well I have thrown a few grenades in my life (not to kill anyone, just during training) and after looking at the fragmentation results of a frag (a "defensive grenade" to be precise), I'd say that they can definitely kill. The internet is full of pretty cool ballistic gel tests with nades.
While I totally agree that the power of grenades is overrated in fiction in general, I do think they are underpowered in TW4e as they stand after the revision.
What militaries usually teach is that the average fragmentation grenade can kill people within 10 meter radius (not 5, but 10). Yes, CAN kill is different than WILL kill, but nevertheless they are not just meant to injure.
I guess it all comes down to math, I personally think that a grenade going off 2-5 meters from a person should have a higher chance of incapacitating that individual than 14%.

Then again, this is a game, not a simulation. But even looking at it from the gaming perspective the average results of a frag seem pretty lame. I mean the average person is statistically still standing (ok well, be prone but still functioning) after 2 grenades have gone off within a few meters of him? For me TW: 2000 should be about shrapnel tearing through people leaving at least horrible wounds, not just tearing off clothes:D

But yeah, like I said this problem can easily be fixed in tables that want more lethality in their nades, so it is no biggie.

Hand grenades are not meant to kill anyone, just to injure them. A hand grenade has 14% chance of doing 3 damage (and causing a crit) and 61% chance of doing 2 damage (not bad in a world where people on the average can take 4,5 damage before going down) and It will cause suppression and knock the target prone regardless if it caused damage or not and that is to everyone in the 10m hex. Also remember that indoor explosions (Urban Ops rule) will cause any explosion to go up one level so a hand grenade will cause a B explosion and that can be very lethal.

Well, here's the issue, though.

Are hand grenades *meant* to kill? No. They're meant to injure.
*can* they kill? Yes, very much so... especially within 10 meters.

It seems to me that in these new rules, it's basically impossible to get a critical injury from a grenade.

That just seems wrong to me. Enough evidence exists that grenades have killed plenty of soldiers immediately in war for this to not be very realistic.

And not just indoors either. Plenty of cases where soldiers have died immediately from shrapnel from hand grenades out in the open.

I honestly think this rule needs another revision.

Otherwise, we'll have situations where someone is driving along in their jeep, an enemy tosses a grenade in their lap and all that happens is that they get supressed and a slight injury.

it's basically impossible to get a critical injury from a grenade

I'd say this is the biggest issue here. From "real life" point of view it is acceptable that if a grenade goes off near you, you survive with scratches because the fragmentation can be very random. But it shouldn't be the norm.
Now we are of course dealing with a game, but even a game should have a some sort of shared understanding of realism of the world at the table. If the PC's are in a T-72 tank the game rules should support the idea that if someone fires a .22 round at the tank, it will have no effect. Players using that T-72 to fire a HEAT round at a Nissan Sunny should expect the poor car not to drive away after a good hit and so forth.
Now it might vary from table to table, but I am pretty sure that majority expects a bit more "oompf" from their grenades.

As it stands now you are probably more likely to get hurt if a marauder hits you by surprise (no blocking) in the arm with a bottle, than if a grenade goes off in your immediate vicinity:D
(I know, kinda unfair comparison since it is a game, but it highlights the problem.)

Do we have any idea why the grenades were nerfed so much or was it "baby out with the bathwater" -type of thing when the heavy weapons were corrected?

BTW here is one grenade video from Swedish Armed Forces. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vojUoF ... tenInblick
This one has some cool slo-mo stuff and ballistic gel going...ballistic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQD0SNN ... ShotDustin

Hand grenades are not meant to kill anyone, just to injure them. A hand grenade has 14% chance of doing 3 damage (and causing a crit) and 61% chance of doing 2 damage (not bad in a world where people on the average can take 4,5 damage before going down) and It will cause suppression and knock the target prone regardless if it caused damage or not and that is to everyone in the 10m hex. Also remember that indoor explosions (Urban Ops rule) will cause any explosion to go up one level so a hand grenade will cause a B explosion and that can be very lethal.

To make sure I understand what you're saying here, this is how I'm interpreting the rule change:

• Grenades do no direct damage.
• When targeting an individual with a grenade, you take a -2 to hit. If you hit with the grenade, you'd then have to roll a second time for 2d8, and in this instance the target can take up to 3 points of damage.
• When targeting a hex with a grenade, you suffer no penalty to hit. If you hit the hex with the grenade, due to the rule for hex targeting not benefitting from additional successes, the target could take a maximum of 2 damage.

Is that correct?

Grenades do no direct damage.

Hand grenades don't have direct damage anymore. The infograph pictures of the hand grenade in the new PDF haven't been updated yet, but the table have. Other types of grenades may have direct damage.

When targeting an individual with a grenade, you take a -2 to hit. If you hit with the grenade, you'd then have to roll a second time for 2d8, and in this instance the target can take up to 3 points of damage.
When targeting a hex with a grenade, you suffer no penalty to hit. If you hit the hex with the grenade, due to the rule for hex targeting not benefitting from additional successes, the target could take a maximum of 2 damage.

Since hand grenades don't have direct damage, you don't target an individual with it anymore, only a hex. Anyone in the hex the hand grenade land in take explosion damage which for a hand grenade out in the open is C or 2d8 which causes 0 or 2-3 damage.
Other types of grenade may have direct damage, like the antitank grenade and may be used to target an individual (even though an antitank grenade is meant to be used against vehicles). A grenade that have direct damage will cause direct damage to the target and then everyone in the hex (including the target) can take explosion damage.

Since hand grenades don't have direct damage, you don't target an individual with it anymore, only a hex. Anyone in the hex the hand grenade land in take explosion damage which for a hand grenade out in the open is C or 2d8 which causes 0 or 2-3 damage.
Other types of grenade may have direct damage, like the antitank grenade and may be used to target an individual (even though an antitank grenade is meant to be used against vehicles). A grenade that have direct damage will cause direct damage to the target and then everyone in the hex (including the target) can take explosion damage.

Okay that helps, but it still doesn't reconcile this line on page 71 under TARGETING:
"Also, when targeting a hex, any extra successes on the attack roll have no effect."

That means that you would roll to see if you hit the hex, and then roll for the explosion. But because you targeted the hex (based on not being able to target individuals), you would only be able to do the base 2d8 damage (or a max of 2 damage, not 3).