• 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7
 
zcthu3
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed 29 May 2019, 10:34

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Sun 05 Feb 2023, 23:00

IMO i think that the npc should list their STR, CON and WILL on their character sheet. Specifically if a character has a damage die, then they can have an appropriate value (such as 13 if they have a d4), while they can list CON/Will in case they have several stacks of ROBUST/focused (otherwise it is easy to calculate what their CON/WIL is, sense it is equal to their HP/WP), but otherwise if nothing else is listed assume a standard value, like 9 similar to the Skill Base Chance.

This makes it easy to keep track off, and it is primarily these three attributes that are used for effects against spells and such.
I agree. The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the stat blocks for NPCs should just have the attributes listed. This solves a few rule gaps currently being patched with ‘defaulting’ rules:

* Resistance rolls that require a particular attribute (e.g. STR, CON) are easy as the information is right there - no need to back calculate from derived ratings.
* Variance in ‘default’ skill levels caused by non-average attributes, ie the default non-skilled check is apparently 5, but if AGL is 13 or 16 (due to an AGL based damage modifier) then logically the base chance for an AGL based skill is 6 or 7 respectively, not 5.
* Opposed rolls not covered by skills (e.g. an arm-wrestle) are still (from my current read) difficult to adjudicate.

Just including attributes on the stat blocks seems like an easier solution to a number of problems.

(Aside: If you included attributes for Monsters you also don’t need to make Monsters immune to things like poison etc, which seems like the sort of thing a PC might like to try to do when fighting or dealing with something tough - they could just have high attributes; I am aware that ship has probably sailed however).
 
Arioch1973
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue 30 Aug 2022, 16:45

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Mon 06 Feb 2023, 01:03

Really, the "they have 5" solution is no solution at all. Because they are talking about skills.
We need stats to roll against for certain spells, to calculate derivative values etc. It seems that this concept completely flies over their head. "We only give you the minimum stats you need to run the creature as a GM" to quote what was said in that youtube interview. Well, the rules calls for rolls against attributes, which means they are a minimum requirement.

And for the "unlisted skill" I think they should have three degrees of possible skill; Novice - Skill value 5, Expert - Skill Value 10, Master - Skill Value 15. Because with only 5 that means most npcs will fail most of the time. And I think there should be competent people in the setting other than the player characters.
 
zcthu3
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed 29 May 2019, 10:34

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Mon 06 Feb 2023, 06:54

Really, the "they have 5" solution is no solution at all. Because they are talking about skills.
We need stats to roll against for certain spells, to calculate derivative values etc. It seems that this concept completely flies over their head. "We only give you the minimum stats you need to run the creature as a GM" to quote what was said in that youtube interview. Well, the rules calls for rolls against attributes, which means they are a minimum requirement.

And for the "unlisted skill" I think they should have three degrees of possible skill; Novice - Skill value 5, Expert - Skill Value 10, Master - Skill Value 15. Because with only 5 that means most npcs will fail most of the time. And I think there should be competent people in the setting other than the player characters.
As noted above, I agree with you on the attributes. Given the ability to back calculate for NPCs (having played around with it for a while now I am almost instinctively reading damage bonuses and HP etc. as the attribute in question) the game is playable, but you shouldn’t have to back calculate to work out an Orc Warriors strength (13 based on the minimum for the damage bonus) to determine whether (as an example) they can break free of an Entangle spell.

On the other hand, I don’t have a major issue re skills defaulting to 5 (or even better, an untrained level based on the attribute - which would be easy to come up with in the fly if the attributes were listed). Competent characters have the skills they good in listed. It’s the stuff they’re not good in that defaults. Having said that, having an idea of “Novice - Skill value 5, Expert - Skill Value 10, Master - Skill Value 15” is useful when creating NPCs.
 
User avatar
Short Fey
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat 03 Dec 2022, 14:45

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Mon 06 Feb 2023, 07:30

Really, the "they have 5" solution is no solution at all. Because they are talking about skills.
We need stats to roll against for certain spells, to calculate derivative values etc. It seems that this concept completely flies over their head. "We only give you the minimum stats you need to run the creature as a GM" to quote what was said in that youtube interview. Well, the rules calls for rolls against attributes, which means they are a minimum requirement.

And for the "unlisted skill" I think they should have three degrees of possible skill; Novice - Skill value 5, Expert - Skill Value 10, Master - Skill Value 15. Because with only 5 that means most npcs will fail most of the time. And I think there should be competent people in the setting other than the player characters.
It should be noted that the "unlisted skill" is meant for the skills they are bad at, so defaulting it to a value of 15 would be nuts even if i agree on the principle lf the idea.

I'd say more along the lines of
Novice 5
Expert 7
Master 9
Beware the fey!
 
JohnWithAgun
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat 18 Jun 2022, 14:27

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Mon 06 Feb 2023, 11:35

Just wanted to bring to attention that one page 29: there is a sections on teachers stating they need a skill of 15 or higher to teach a PC.

(this might stand as a baseline/established skills attainable by NPC's or something that would also need to be changed)
 
Ravencloak
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat 31 Dec 2022, 21:31

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Mon 06 Feb 2023, 15:54

Just wanted to bring to attention that one page 29: there is a sections on teachers stating they need a skill of 15 or higher to teach a PC.

(this might stand as a baseline/established skills attainable by NPC's or something that would also need to be changed)
I think Short Fey's point is that the listed skills are supposed to be the things an NPC is good at, so any unlisted skills should be considered to be untrained. If you need an NPC who can train your PCs in riding, make sure you have a stable master or local knight or whatever who is skilled at riding.
 
Arioch1973
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue 30 Aug 2022, 16:45

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Mon 06 Feb 2023, 17:11

That’s how I have been working it under Beta v2 but it doesn’t appear to be written into the rules. I also note that Hit Points (HP) can be used to back-calculate CON (by subtracting any bonus HP from the Robust Heroic Ability) for resisting poisons. If it ever becomes relevant you can also calculate Willpower from WP in the same basic way.
Free League does not seem to get the point that less is not always more or better. They want to have only the values you need to run that npc/monster, but outside of hitting them with a big stick, the rules can barely hold up. Especially since it is mentioned that NPCs should use the same rules as player characters. Having STR, CON, AGL, INT, WIL, CHA listed is not a heavy burden, but rather saves the GM the trouble of counting things backwards from derived values. What is the point of having rules at all, if they only applies to the player characters? Might as well use a system of bribing the GM with snacks to determine outcome of things....
 
Raven
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu 12 Jan 2023, 23:09

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Mon 06 Feb 2023, 17:59

I would be really interested in the opinion of the developers on this topic. I think they want to keep everything as slim and streamlined as possible. Thats not a bad thing. In my overall experience the simplification of rules makes almost no difference for most players and supports the game master. I feel that the intention of the rules is to push the gamemaster to improvise on the fly. The use of 5 or 15 or whatever as a default is very easy and streamlined but, in my opinion, is not enough to aid the game master for every situation. While this is no problem (but sometimes annoying) for experienced Gamemasters it can lead beginners into serious trouble.
Id like to see some advice of building NPC in the bestiary . At least a pictorial explanation of the ranks for attributes and skills.
 
User avatar
Short Fey
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat 03 Dec 2022, 14:45

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Mon 06 Feb 2023, 18:52

That’s how I have been working it under Beta v2 but it doesn’t appear to be written into the rules. I also note that Hit Points (HP) can be used to back-calculate CON (by subtracting any bonus HP from the Robust Heroic Ability) for resisting poisons. If it ever becomes relevant you can also calculate Willpower from WP in the same basic way.
Free League does not seem to get the point that less is not always more or better. They want to have only the values you need to run that npc/monster, but outside of hitting them with a big stick, the rules can barely hold up. Especially since it is mentioned that NPCs should use the same rules as player characters. Having STR, CON, AGL, INT, WIL, CHA listed is not a heavy burden, but rather saves the GM the trouble of counting things backwards from derived values. What is the point of having rules at all, if they only applies to the player characters? Might as well use a system of bribing the GM with snacks to determine outcome of things....
So the funny thing is, having gmed this for several sessions. and thinking things over with the new version of the beta, i found myself realising that you really don't NEED to have the attributes listed, in particular AGL, INT and CHA sense there isn't any mechanic that specifically requires those attributes among npcs. Most things that npcs do involves skill checks, but as the game rules specifically say "Npc shouldn't roll skills UNLESS IT DIRECTLY AFFECTS THE PLAYERS such as Attacks or healing rolls", instead just choosing if they succeed or not (or rolling once in a while if you want for the sake of drama), this further reduces the "necessary" stats on the npc. I ran into a few snags initially when the players where experimenting and me getting a grip of the system, but after that i never really had any problems with it sense it is such a rare occurrence.

And while, yes, attributes such as STR and WILL are used against spells, along with potentially CON, i can agree their should be written somewhere what the gm can use (i made a recent suggestion on the Magic chapter regarding that), how active of an issue it becomes really depends on what spells the players picks. You can easily be in a situation where the mage has no spells that requires attribute rolls, so then you have information on the npc that you won't really be using.

It works surprisingly well once it clicks, it just needs a bit of clarification for those specific situation when it is necessary.
Beware the fey!
 
Von Ether
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed 31 Aug 2022, 16:09

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Tue 07 Feb 2023, 05:15

First, shouldn't discussions about NPCs be in the Adventure section where NPCs are, not the Bestiary?

Really, the "they have 5" solution is no solution at all. Because they are talking about skills.
Then the default attribute would be 9-12, or simply a 10.

-------

Orcs and Goblins

I assume that as monsters, Orcs and goblins react to spells such as Sleep like the rest of the monsters in the bestiary, but clarification would help. For example:

"Non-Monster: Orcs do not count as monsters in combat but they still count as monsters for spell effects. Orcs do not have Monster attacks but use NPC-like skills and weapons."

Page 99.

Common Animals have Non-Monster/NPC stats but no clarification. As they are in the bestiary, it implies they Non-Monsters who perform combat as NPCs, but would treat spell effects as monsters do.

At this stage, it seems that Non-Monster Monsters are basically intelligent creatures who are not playable PC Kin The bane against sunlight and being immune to mind spells makes them more mythical.

But it seems that a lot of expectations lean towards having orcs and goblins be more mundane so much to the point that feedback about NPCs is happening in the wrong section, It might be better to just make them regular NPCs all around.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest