Ravencloak
Posts: 27
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Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 4 Combat & Damage

Mon 06 Feb 2023, 15:49

The armour durability thing is an odd add, but I don't think it's as big a deal as it first looks like:
A maximally armoured opponent with plate armour and a great helm has armour 8, and the only weapons with less than 8 durability are knives, improvised weapons, and ranged weapons (don't hit people with your bow).
Even a basic wooden club or staff cannot be broken by hitting armour. So basically all it's saying is "if you smash this fully plate knight with a tree branch, it will break on their armour". Fair enough. Even then, you still have to deal enough damage to actually have it "reflect" back and break the weapon (if I hit a knight with a tree branch and only roll a 5 for damage, the attack bounces but my branch doesnt break either)

Judging by the bestiary, monster armour is generally kept pretty low (even a dragon only has 6), so unless you homebrew something with crazy high armour, I don't actually see this impacting most encounters that much.
Since breaking weapons is essentially a non-issue, why bother having a rule for it? In a game that is supposed to be streamlined and fast playing, rules like this slow down play.
 
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Kaybe
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Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 4 Combat & Damage

Mon 06 Feb 2023, 16:33

Page 46. Shields - "There is no skill for shields – instead you can use any STR-based melee skill (i.e. any of them except KNIVES and STAVES) to parry with a shield."

This is just my opinion, but I feel like there is a better mechanic than this. I understand not wanting to add a shield skill. But I think being able to roll ANY STR-based weapon skill makes no sense. If I have a sword and shield, but wish to parry then I can choose to roll axes because it is a higher chance of success? I think it should at least be the STR-based skill of the weapon you're currently wielding, or just a STR roll instead.
Likely to not punish shield carrying players by burdening them with an extra skill. There's already a dedicated defensive skill in the game, Evade, and it is very strong. Stronger than shield use since you don't risk damaging anything, as well as the fact that a successful dodge gets your out of harm's way. On top of that, Evade is used to disengage from melee combat without someone getting a free attack on you. So you would need to make a shield skill at least as strong as Evade, which, being more specialized, would be pretty imbalanced in practice due to it being so strong. So since shield usage is weaker overall than dodging and other applications of the Evade skill, the devs decided to just tie it to one's best weapon skill as an indication of overall combat ability and experience. It basically allows a tank character to train themselves with a variety of weapons without sacrificing their defensive ability.
 
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Short Fey
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Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 4 Combat & Damage

Mon 06 Feb 2023, 19:14

I was thinking about how you now have a box on page 33 regarding how npcs uses skills, and i was thinking maybe you could have a similar thing for using Attributes against Poison, Disease and Fear for npcs, perhaps something like this.

Using CON against Poison and Disease as an NPC
In a situation where an NPC becomes the victim to Poison or Disease, the GM can choose to make a CON roll to withstand the effect in an opposed roll against the poisons potency or the disease virulence, or if outside of combat choose if the NPC succeeds or fails the roll.

-For CON, the value they use is equal to their maximum HP value, excluding any points they gain from the ROBUST Heroic Ability.

For poisons, if the NPC fails their roll, they suffer the full effect instantly, and in the case of Lethal poison, drops to 0hp with the GM deciding if they die instantly or are unconscious.
For Disease, if the NPC fails their roll, they become sick the next day, and automatically fail their rolls against the Disease. However they can still be treated by a Player Character, or be brought to a healer.


Using WILL against FEAR as an NPC
In a situation where an NPC would become the target of a FEAR attack, be it from an Monster, an environmental effect, or an intimidating player character, the GM can choose to make a WILL roll to withstand the effect, or if outside of combat choose if the npc succeeds or fails the roll.

-For WILL, the value they use is equal to their maximum WP value, excluding any points they gain from the FOCUSED Heroic Ability. If they do not have any WP listed, use a default value of 9.

If the NPC fails the WILL roll, instead of rolling on the FEAR table, the GM can roll or choose one of the following effects.
-1: The NPC becomes paralyzed with fear, and skips their next turn.
-2: The NPC uses it's action to Dash and run away from the source of it's fear.
-3: The NPC becomes shaken and unfocused, until the end of it's next turn, all rolls are done with a bane, and all rolls against the NPC is done with a boon.


This gives the Gm some info how they can use these mechanics against npcs.
Last edited by Short Fey on Mon 06 Feb 2023, 23:29, edited 2 times in total.
Beware the fey!
 
Gimkin
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2023, 19:47

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 4 Combat & Damage

Mon 06 Feb 2023, 21:05

I guess I should also mention it here:

https://forum.frialigan.se/viewtopic.php?t=10739#p79862
In Chapter 3 Skills on Page 32 it is stated, that helping others grants a boon and you can help others in a combat as well.
[...]
Helping is not a listed Action in Chapter 4 Combat on Page 42, but it should also be listed there.
 
Ugglefar
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Norway

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 4 Combat & Damage

Tue 07 Feb 2023, 14:53

The armour durability thing is an odd add, but I don't think it's as big a deal as it first looks like:
A maximally armoured opponent with plate armour and a great helm has armour 8, and the only weapons with less than 8 durability are knives, improvised weapons, and ranged weapons (don't hit people with your bow).
Even a basic wooden club or staff cannot be broken by hitting armour. So basically all it's saying is "if you smash this fully plate knight with a tree branch, it will break on their armour". Fair enough. Even then, you still have to deal enough damage to actually have it "reflect" back and break the weapon (if I hit a knight with a tree branch and only roll a 5 for damage, the attack bounces but my branch doesnt break either)

Judging by the bestiary, monster armour is generally kept pretty low (even a dragon only has 6), so unless you homebrew something with crazy high armour, I don't actually see this impacting most encounters that much.

I find the whole system of armour and weapon durability tedious. It slows down the game a lot, and offer very little enjoyment in return. This is the type of archaic game mechanics we should get rid off.
 
Ugglefar
Posts: 117
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Location: Norway

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 4 Combat & Damage

Tue 07 Feb 2023, 14:58

I'm sad to see it appears they have removed the boon from blocking with a shield. Anyone that has done reenactment or martial arts probably have experienced how much easier it is to block something with a shield than parry with a weapon (at least that's my personal experience).

If they want to make it more even between parry or blocking they could always consider making blocking with a shield working as "active armour". So if you succeed with your block you remove, e.g. 5, damage from the attack instead of negating it completely.
 
Ugglefar
Posts: 117
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Location: Norway

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 4 Combat & Damage

Tue 07 Feb 2023, 15:28

Page 46. Shields - "There is no skill for shields – instead you can use any STR-based melee skill (i.e. any of them except KNIVES and STAVES) to parry with a shield."

This is just my opinion, but I feel like there is a better mechanic than this. I understand not wanting to add a shield skill. But I think being able to roll ANY STR-based weapon skill makes no sense. If I have a sword and shield, but wish to parry then I can choose to roll axes because it is a higher chance of success? I think it should at least be the STR-based skill of the weapon you're currently wielding, or just a STR roll instead.

Apart from some exceptions such as dueling shields (which seem to have been used exclusively in judicial duels) shields were always used in conjunction with a weapon. So I think it's strange that you should see shields as a separate skill. Swords, axes, and battle clubs were also usually used one-handed (of course two-handed versions did exist), so one should rather see one's skill in Axe as one's training to fight with axes AND shields. And the whole division of weapons is quite arbitrary. Since axes and e.g. warhammers are both top heavy weapons they both behave quite similar when you swing them, so the skills are transferable.
 
artikid
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon 16 Jan 2023, 16:55

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 4 Combat & Damage

Tue 07 Feb 2023, 17:46

On the subject of weapon and shield breakage: I think it is better handled with fumbles than with a damage-to-durability comparison for every attack.

As for shields: I'd rather have them grant a boon to parrying with your main weapon skill (or better yet have them grant extra Armor points requiring no roll, just by chosing to parry) than have a separate Shield skill.
 
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Rathalos32
Posts: 37
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Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 4 Combat & Damage

Tue 07 Feb 2023, 18:24

Page 41 - Waiting: Just to be clear, Monsters cannot wait, but NPC humanoids like bandits can, correct? Also, what happens if you swap initiative with a group of NPCs who all share the same initiative? Or can you only swap with a single NPC in that group? And if so and your PC ends up sharing the same initiative score as the remaining NPCs, who goes first on that turn?
In this case, me and my players are using the swap with the group of enemies (the whole group swap the card).
Page 43 - Stand/Crouch: Is there a particular order here like how in Blade Runner you can only stand at the start of your move or go prone at the end of your movement? Can you move while crouching, for example to move under a window to avoid notice or otherwise remain behind cover? If so, is there a penalty to your move speed?
No, you can't in v3. In pg. 42, the Free Action now specifies that you can't do both in the same turn.
Page 43 - Sneak Attack / Ambush: Can you sneak attack or ambush using ranged weapons? Using a subtle weapon gives you a damage bonus, but I don't see any rules indicating you can't use a non-subtle ranged weapon. For now, I'll assume the answer is yes.
Nothing says otherwise, so in my table we have ruled that yes, is possible to sneak attack with ranged weapons, it will just not receive the damage bonus like any other non-subtle weapon.
 
simontmn
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu 09 Feb 2023, 00:18

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 4 Combat & Damage

Thu 09 Feb 2023, 00:20

I'm sad to see it appears they have removed the boon from blocking with a shield. Anyone that has done reenactment or martial arts probably have experienced how much easier it is to block something with a shield than parry with a weapon (at least that's my personal experience).
Yes, from the Quickstart I was going to make the first shield use not use a Reaction. Then I saw in v2 it gave a Boon, which is a great and elegant approach IMO. Then they got rid of the Boon! :-O
I'm definitely keeping the Boon to shield parry.

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