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Short Fey
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Regarding Npc's, Monsters, Skills and Attributes.

Thu 05 Jan 2023, 17:03

I've made posts about this on some of the other threads but i'll sum up my main point here.

Having both play tested the game and seeing various posts on the subject, it is pretty clear that there is an issue regarding Npc's (both humanoid and animal) and monsters (both of which i'll now collectively refer to as characters) when the game requires them too roll a skill check or attribute which they don't have listed on their character sheet (be it opposed rolls, awareness checks, resistance rolls against magic etc).

Now i really like the overall streamlined approach Free League has taken for the game (its one of the main reasons i am interested in it). And i understand the intention is that characters are meant to have minimalist character sheets so it is quick and easy to get a game going.

But i think they may have cut a bit too much, as currently as a GM i can find myself in these weird positions of being asked to roll something that i don't have any material to use, and i think it is a big problem.

Now some things i think can be solved by letting the players do a roll instead (such as rolling bluff rather than the npc making an awareness roll when using the Disguise heroic ability), but for the bigger issues such as opposed rolls i think there are three solutions.

1: the GM only rolls attack, evade, parry and healing checks in combat, any other roll are done by the players with some rule to modify the difficulty (such as a skill penalty, reducing the odds of success).

This removes the need for most character stats sense the important stuff is done by the players.

2: the characters use 1-2 substitute stat, which they roll if they do not have the skill in there sheet. This gives you something quick and simple to use.

3 (which i think is what most are leaning for): the character has there attributes listed, along with the skill base value for that attribute ,so for example if they have Str of 18 it is written as STR 18 (7), and the character lists ONLY the skills they are trained in(so in the above example, if a character is trained in SWORDS but not HAMMERS, you only list SWORDS as SWORDS 14, HAMMER is covered by the Skill Base Value.)

This means there is more work to create a character, but you have everything covered.

In the grand scheme of things,i am not picky with how this is addressed, aside from keeping things streamlined, but as it stands i think this is a big issue with the game as it currently is.

(Edit: Made some spelling corrections, writing a lot on a phone is hard)
Last edited by Short Fey on Thu 05 Jan 2023, 20:27, edited 2 times in total.
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Johnmarron
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Re: Regarding Npc's, Monsters, Skills and Attributes.

Thu 05 Jan 2023, 18:38

Of these options, I am a fan of your #2. I think giving all creatures (NPCs, animals, Monsters) a generic Untrained/Trained number (i.e., Orc, 6/12) and a list of a few trained skills would be useful, while also keeping the stat blocks uncluttered.
 
zcthu3
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Re: Regarding Npc's, Monsters, Skills and Attributes.

Thu 05 Jan 2023, 19:14

I think a combination of 2 and 3. I think two ratings - one for Physique and one for Mind/Social with a default skill value for related tasks (like your STR 18 (7)) is best. It provides for situations where the GM needs either the raw attribute (e.g. for a Resistance roll against a spell), or a skill value (e.g. an opposed rolls when sneaking against an active searcher) without too much more on the characters sheet and without having to back calculate from the secondary attributes (e.g. damage bonus or WP) which are listed. Specific skills (either stronger or weaker) would still be listed separately.
 
Arioch1973
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Re: Regarding Npc's, Monsters, Skills and Attributes.

Sat 07 Jan 2023, 23:08

I would really like #3. The lack of stats to roll against for npcs and monsters is my biggest gripe with the system at the moment.
 
artikid
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Re: Regarding Npc's, Monsters, Skills and Attributes.

Mon 16 Jan 2023, 17:08

I think a combination of 2 and 3. I think two ratings - one for Physique and one for Mind/Social with a default skill value for related tasks (like your STR 18 (7)) is best. It provides for situations where the GM needs either the raw attribute (e.g. for a Resistance roll against a spell), or a skill value (e.g. an opposed rolls when sneaking against an active searcher) without too much more on the characters sheet and without having to back calculate from the secondary attributes (e.g. damage bonus or WP) which are listed. Specific skills (either stronger or weaker) would still be listed separately.
I support this approach
 
Arioch1973
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Re: Regarding Npc's, Monsters, Skills and Attributes.

Mon 16 Jan 2023, 19:09

If we are not getting the same attributes as player characters have and npcs/monsters will work according to another set of rules, II think the combination of Evade (which is already in there), and Resilience (physical strength and toughness), plus Persistence (will and intelligence) would make for a good combo of skills to have for npcs and monsters.
 
artikid
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Re: Regarding Npc's, Monsters, Skills and Attributes.

Mon 16 Jan 2023, 19:21

If we are not getting the same attributes as player characters have and npcs/monsters will work according to another set of rules, II think the combination of Evade (which is already in there), and Resilience (physical strength and toughness), plus Persistence (will and intelligence) would make for a good combo of skills to have for npcs and monsters.
Not my favorite, but it could be a good compromise solution in keeping with the simplicity FL is aiming for.
 
artikid
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Re: Regarding Npc's, Monsters, Skills and Attributes.

Fri 27 Jan 2023, 17:32

Coming back to the subject, I think the issue could be solved by giving Monsters and NPCs only three stats: Might (covers Str and Con), Quickness(covers Dex), Wisdom (covers Int, Will, Cha).
Each of these could be assigned four levels:
Not Applicable (the character fails all rolls, but is immune to Conditions targetting the original stats)
Weak (is a score of 7)
Average (score of 11)
Strong (score of 15)
Supreme (score of 18)
I wouldn't give higher scores, as the d20 Range and mechanics would make a Strength score of, say, 34 a problem
 
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VorpalMace
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Re: Regarding Npc's, Monsters, Skills and Attributes.

Sun 29 Jan 2023, 13:42

Coming back to the subject, I think the issue could be solved by giving Monsters and NPCs only three stats: Might (covers Str and Con), Quickness(covers Dex), Wisdom (covers Int, Will, Cha).
It's kind of how the original Magic World booklet from the Worlds of Wonder boxed set did it: for monsters Size, Constitution, and Strength were merged into a single Size attribute.

Another solution I saw in some BRP stat blocks was only mentioning noteworthy attributes - consider the rest ten.
 
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Short Fey
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Re: Regarding Npc's, Monsters, Skills and Attributes.

Mon 30 Jan 2023, 12:15

Coming back to the subject, I think the issue could be solved by giving Monsters and NPCs only three stats: Might (covers Str and Con), Quickness(covers Dex), Wisdom (covers Int, Will, Cha).
It's kind of how the original Magic World booklet from the Worlds of Wonder boxed set did it: for monsters Size, Constitution, and Strength were merged into a single Size attribute.

Another solution I saw in some BRP stat blocks was only mentioning noteworthy attributes - consider the rest ten.
Honestly that's not a bad idea. "If it's not listed, its value is X" is very simple to keep track off.
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