Arioch1973
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue 30 Aug 2022, 16:45

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Tue 10 Jan 2023, 19:48

Then we are going to need something that has more grades than boon/bane. Because it is just not cutting it.
GM:"A boulder comes rolling down the slope and pin your character against a tree", "Make a STR check with a bane"
Player: *rolls 2 D20 and keep highest of 16 (14 second one) compare to his STR* "No problem, I throw the boulder aside."

That is of course a silly and extreme case. But every game I have played so far over the years that lack a good opposed roll mechanic tends to end up fairly broken in that the player characters can get away with pretty much everything. And if you read through page 105, NPCs are divided into "minions" and "bosses" (please change that to adversary, in order to avoid it sounding like a video game), Bosses should be fully fleshed out same as player characters. Which mean they will have attributes etc. Minions are just a weapon with a hit number and a hit point buffer.

And suddenly I have a deja-vu from running FFG Star Wars system where players mow down minions by the dozens, and regular adversaries are at best a marginal challenge. I can see that it is this way they are going with it. The highly dramatic heroic journey where you cut through the hordes of orcs only to get to the sorcerer that commands them.
I would still prefer if minions had two attributes in case they are needed though: Body and Mind. Showing their strength with either. Body would be a collection of STR, CON, AGL, and Mind is a collection of INT, WIL, CHA. Am I sounding like a crazy person now?
 
Banquo
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed 31 Aug 2022, 10:35

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Tue 10 Jan 2023, 20:02

I’m not sure if this is too simple? But I was thinking NPCs could default to 7 for any statistic and 4 for any skill unless stated otherwise in their stat block, and that monsters use a base of 15 for all opposed roles (matching the parry/ dodge default). So most NPC stats are “below average” based on the skill base chance table (not lowest but enough that PCs and bigger monsters stand out).
 
Banquo
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed 31 Aug 2022, 10:35

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Tue 10 Jan 2023, 20:25

One thing that confuses me is that since NPCs and monsters don’t have base stats, a number have Robust (multiple times) that adds to HP, but as there is no “base” HP (no Con stat) it seems a but superfluous (as counting back from the added HP doesn’t result in the basic HP for similar NPC stats, so not sure what the base number ‘bosses’ use for this)
Last edited by Banquo on Tue 10 Jan 2023, 20:34, edited 2 times in total.
 
zcthu3
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed 29 May 2019, 10:34

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Tue 10 Jan 2023, 20:27

I’m not sure if this is too simple? But I was thinking NPCs could default to 7 for any statistic and 4 for any skill unless stated otherwise in their stat block, and that monsters use a base of 15 for all opposed roles (matching the parry/ dodge default). So most NPC stats are “below average” based on the skill base chance table (not lowest but enough that PCs and bigger monsters stand out).
Personally I would use 10 for unspecified attributes (which gives 5 for untrained skills), but otherwise I agree. The main reason is that PCs (should be) above average based on 4d6 drop the lowest and everyone else being average (unless specified otherwise) makes sense.

I also agree you can get away with only listing good or bad attributes. You can already work backwards from some of the derived characteristics to get attributes for NPCs and Monster NPCs like Goblins, Orcs and Skeletons - eg. anything with a damage bonus of +d4 has an implicit attribute of between 13 - 16 in either STR or AGL. CON can be derived from HP (by subtracting any levels of Robust) and WIL from WP (by subtracting levels of Focused).
 
Arioch1973
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue 30 Aug 2022, 16:45

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Tue 10 Jan 2023, 21:32

I am questioning the assumption that you should do that kind of backwards counting in order to find the numbers, instead of just printing them straight up in the book.
 
zcthu3
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed 29 May 2019, 10:34

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Tue 10 Jan 2023, 22:04

I am questioning the assumption that you should do that kind of backwards counting in order to find the numbers, instead of just printing them straight up in the book.
Sorry, my point kind of got lost (juggling a few things). The point I was trying to make (poorly) is that the beta is already part of the way there. It provides derived characteristics which can be back-calculated to get a minimum attribute (which is useful short term for those using the beta), but could be better addressed in the final product by listing them and/or by including rules around what to default to.

To be clear, I think having attributes, and defaulting rules for skills (untrained level?) for NPCs and Monsters printed in the book is useful and the cleanest solution to several issues that have been raised (opposed rolls, resistance to spells etc). At minimum I think there should be rules for a default attribute (e.g. 10) and skills default to the untrained value with a list of which attributes and skills deviate from that base assumption.
 
Arioch1973
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue 30 Aug 2022, 16:45

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Tue 10 Jan 2023, 23:09

To be clear, I think having attributes, and defaulting rules for skills (untrained level?) for NPCs and Monsters printed in the book is useful and the cleanest solution to several issues that have been raised (opposed rolls, resistance to spells etc). At minimum I think there should be rules for a default attribute (e.g. 10) and skills default to the untrained value with a list of which attributes and skills deviate from that base assumption.
I agree. I dont like to wave my hand and allow the players to successfully overcome the city guard because it is a player character and the guard is a minion npc. The argument I see is that bane are for that use. But without more grades to "easy" and "difficult" rolls, that is going to get old real fast when a player has hit a skill level of 18. Attributes to roll against with opposed rolls, and to judge aspects of the character from as a GM, would go a long way in solving it.

I can see the point they are making, the direction they are taking. They want it rules light, so it is fast and fun to play. But I think they might cut away to much of the fat, and even part of the meat in rebuilding the system (based on the assumption that they have at least looked at the old rules).
 
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Melvin
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun 22 Dec 2019, 01:45

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Tue 10 Jan 2023, 23:53

As I said in another thread, you can use the mounted mechanic of the game. If the difficulty is high, that s because maybe more than one skill (or one test) is needed. You could ask first to succeed one test with a skill, then another. Bane, boon or not for the tests. Or, like the mounted combat, ask the lowest skill from the two used and put a bane, a boon or not. Or maybe you want to ask an attribute roll.

But if that's not enough, maybe tell that the demon (20) run from 18 to 20 maybe?
 
Arioch1973
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue 30 Aug 2022, 16:45

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Wed 11 Jan 2023, 15:33

As I said in another thread, you can use the mounted mechanic of the game. If the difficulty is high, that s because maybe more than one skill (or one test) is needed. You could ask first to succeed one test with a skill, then another. Bane, boon or not for the tests. Or, like the mounted combat, ask the lowest skill from the two used and put a bane, a boon or not. Or maybe you want to ask an attribute roll.

But if that's not enough, maybe tell that the demon (20) run from 18 to 20 maybe?
That is a possible solution for difficulty, but it still does not solve the problem of opposed rolls. For example casting a spell against a target that resists.
 
Johnmarron
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu 15 Mar 2018, 23:42

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 7 Bestiary

Wed 11 Jan 2023, 17:41

I would like to advocate for not giving monsters Attributes. For me one of the main strengths of this system is that the players have fully fleshed PC with Stats, skills and attributes that allow the players interesting character progression choices whilst NPC and Monsters are kept as stripped down as possible to minimize the burden on the GM.
I'm in this camp as well. Give monsters/adversaries the bare minimum in terms of stats that we need to run them, so it's easier on the GM.

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