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Short Fey
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 03 Jan 2023, 09:21

Now this is only my oppinion, but i think people are looking at MASTER TANNER the wrong way.
The ability to create stuff is usually strong, because you can get items you want cheaper, and sense time is something we can shift through we don't have that drawback.while tanner do not have
Tanners main advantage is that you can get leather cheap, and in contrast to carpenter and smith the amount of WP you need to pay for is cheaper. You could likely make a lot of learher armor and sell it.

The "make better leather armor" bit to me is meant to be a rare treat. If you could make +2 leather armor easily, it would make Studded leather useless (why use that when you can make the same but better for free?).
Rather than making creatures with natural armor more common, it should have some additional benefit, like maybe you could create padding for your armor that gives you +1 armour for one battle, or craft things like backpacks, saddles, pouches and maybe ropes.
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JohnWithAgun
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 03 Jan 2023, 10:08

The current roll a dragon/demon system seems to harken back to Chaosium traditions. Kind of giving the game an OSR feel, not unlike rolling for stats with no point buy
I dig it.
doesn't this promote "spam rolling" ? Every roll opportunity is a advancement opportunity, so a mechanical player would try to find a reason to roll as often as possible.
Also skills that are naturally rolled a lot (like evade and melee) would become considerably higher over a campaign then more niche things like lore checks and swimming.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 03 Jan 2023, 10:23

The current roll a dragon/demon system seems to harken back to Chaosium traditions. Kind of giving the game an OSR feel, not unlike rolling for stats with no point buy
I dig it.
doesn't this promote "spam rolling" ? Every roll opportunity is a advancement opportunity, so a mechanical player would try to find a reason to roll as often as possible.
Also skills that are naturally rolled a lot (like evade and melee) would become considerably higher over a campaign then more niche things like lore checks and swimming.
Luckily a skill is only rolled for when the GM say so, not when the player say so. A player will get 1-5 free advancement marks that he can use as he see fits, but some skills will go up faster than others.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
zcthu3
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 03 Jan 2023, 10:31

The current roll a dragon/demon system seems to harken back to Chaosium traditions. Kind of giving the game an OSR feel, not unlike rolling for stats with no point buy
I dig it.
doesn't this promote "spam rolling" ? Every roll opportunity is a advancement opportunity, so a mechanical player would try to find a reason to roll as often as possible.
Also skills that are naturally rolled a lot (like evade and melee) would become considerably higher over a campaign then more niche things like lore checks and swimming.
I’ve heard the issue of ‘tick hunting’ come up a lot over the years, but never had a problem with a player ‘tick hunting’ to advance skills in any BRP (or BRP derived game like Pendragon) I’ve played in or run. Not saying it doesn’t happen, but it does seem (IME) to be an overly inflated risk particularly, as Fenhorn says, it’s the GM prerogative to call for a skill check.

I also would note that it makes sense for characters to advance skills that get used a lot - practice makes perfect after all. It’s actually something I like about BRP based games - you get good it the things you do often but can still train in other skills (which in Dragonbane would be reflected by the ‘free advancements’.
 
Von Ether
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 03 Jan 2023, 23:45

Now this is only my oppinion, but i think people are looking at MASTER TANNER the wrong way.
The ability to create stuff is usually strong, because you can get items you want cheaper, and sense time is something we can shift through we don't have that drawback.while tanner do not have
Tanners main advantage is that you can get leather cheap, and in contrast to carpenter and smith the amount of WP you need to pay for is cheaper. You could likely make a lot of learher armor and sell it.

The "make better leather armor" bit to me is meant to be a rare treat. If you could make +2 leather armor easily, it would make Studded leather useless (why use that when you can make the same but better for free?).
Rather than making creatures with natural armor more common, it should have some additional benefit, like maybe you could create padding for your armor that gives you +1 armour for one battle, or craft things like backpacks, saddles, pouches and maybe ropes.
I don't look at it as "free" as it does cost WP but it also gives the Artisan the spotlight. Studded Leather has a purpose, to give begining characters something to wear until something cooler comes along. LOL!

I think Carpenter is way cooler in that you can make weapons and shields for your mages while also breaking down doors and such.
 
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Short Fey
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 04 Jan 2023, 02:24

Having tested the beta for a bit now overall i enjoy the experience, it's very fast and simple.

But if there is a mechanic i think should be removed it's opposed rolls.

From both my experience, my players and as seen on the forums, its a rule that causes confusion, especially among the gm. It often asks for rolls in skillls and attributes that are not on the npcs and monsters, which leads to weird and awkward situations of trying to figure out what too use. It can feel frustrating to play against as a player for even if you succed, you lose if the opponent rolled a little higher, or your the one to fail if you fail even when the opponet fails. And a lot of gms seem to think it is to be used whenever you do something against a npc rather when you wanna raise the challnge.

I think removing opposed rolls would do the game a favor. Most things can be handeled by a simple skill check anyway. It keeps the game streamlined, and it is what the game recommends to do in the first place amyway.

Now there should still be a mechanic to make a situation harder, and i would for that pitch this: Challenge rolls.

The core idea is when you do something that would pose a challenge, the gm can declair it a challenging roll. This gives the player a skill level penalty for the roll, reducing it by a certain amount of levels depending on the challenge. These should be fixed values, so the player knows exactly how much to reduce (the following are just examples, values could be different)

Lesser challenge -3 (-15% chance of success)
Greater challenge -5 (-25%)
Imposing challenge -7(-35%).

You can still be given banes depending on how you tackle the challenge (for example, your going to sneak inside a fortress that is on high alert, which is a greater challenge but you snesk in via a route that is well lit and in the open, so you roll with a bane)

These rules can be applied to both poisons and diseases for rolls to resist them.

It removes dice rolls, can be more flexibly applied to more situations and feels more fair.

Some other mechanics that used opposed rolls, or that the npcc makes a skill check can be changed.

Disguise heroic ability: make a Bluff skill check when you act out of character as the person your impersonating towards someone who knows them. The gm can make it a challenging roll if it is particularly out of character.

Ambush: the players must make a Sneaking check, with a boon if they are well prepared. For each player that succeds, there action counts as surprising and may choose their initiative card.

Grapple: you make a Brawling attack that deals no damage, the opponet can Dodge the attack. On a succesful grapple the opponet can attempt to escape by on their turn with a Dodge roll (not a action, but with a bane)

Spells like ensnaring roots or sleep: you make the roll with a bane at 2wp, normal at 4, with a boon at 6 (other banes and boons can still effect it, so functionally is the same mechanic, just different who gets the boon/bane)

It also means the only skills which an npc outright NEEDS on the character sheet is a weaponskill and Evade, to attack, parry and dodge.

The only time i think opposed rolls work are in player vs player situations, but that should be done with open opposed rolls, and done sparingly. Beyond that, opposed rolls should go.


Edit: tidied up writing, and adding some points
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CarlNyk
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 04 Jan 2023, 22:22

Yeah, most opposed rolls can be substituted by one bane for ordinary resistance (sneaking past alert guards), and two banes for extraordinary resistance (pushing past a minotaur). Some effects, like domination (mind control) still have a pure resist roll, so that's not included. Genuine contests, such as winning in arm wrestling, might still need a mechanic.
 
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Short Fey
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 04 Jan 2023, 22:59

Yeah, most opposed rolls can be substituted by one bane for ordinary resistance (sneaking past alert guards), and two banes for extraordinary resistance (pushing past a minotaur). Some effects, like domination (mind control) still have a pure resist roll, so that's not included. Genuine contests, such as winning in arm wrestling, might still need a mechanic.
For domination i could see that you do as my previous examples, you could just make it so that when you cast the spell, you roll the casting of the spell with a Bane at 2wp, Normal at 4, and with a boon at 6 (essentially, how much of your power you exert to gain control over them). Or alternatively, that you make the casting a challenging roll (-7 at 2wp, -5 at 4wp, and -3 at 6wp). It removes the need to make an opposed roll, and you can flavor it that attempting to gain control over someone is difficult.

The issue i find with contested in this game, is that it is clear it is not outright built for such rolls. Npcs and monsters are meant to have small skill lists, and if they are gonna do something that for a player requires a roll, an npc should only roll if it DIRECTLY affects the players (If the party went out their way to find an expert on a particular legend, that npc shouldn't roll Myths and Legends to see if they do know, he just flat out "succeeds" and tells the party what they need to know. You should only roll if it is an attack that could harm, or an npc is trying to save you with a healing check), and really should only have skills for the sake of flavor, in case they are an expert in the skill and can serve as teachers, or are meant to be a noteworthy npc. But as a consequence, we are in this weird situation of not having the skills on the npcs and monsters for the various mechanics that is "supposed to have them".

And i would argue that you don't NEED to have contested rolls to make a challenge. If we take the arm wrestling contest, there are other ways that you could invoke that the person is strong, such as your making the roll with a bane, or if we take my suggestion, it might be a Lesser or Greater challenge to do. I have played a decent number of rpgs where the gm do not make any opposed rolls against the players, and instead the player is the only one who rolls their dice, and the gm decides how easy/hard that challenge is. And a lot of them work really well in that regard (I can highly recommend "Blades in the Dark" as an example).

Contested rolls works best in much more crunchy rpgs where the npcs have devoted stat blocks which do list all the attributes, stats and skills. But it is pretty clear that Free League wants this to be a more streamlined and simple rpg, which is why i think that opposed rolls, and similar "contested" mechanics don't work. It feels that they are tacking it on because it might be an mechanic from the older editions that is here for the sake of "It was in the older editions, so it should be here".
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Tancred
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Thu 05 Jan 2023, 02:44

Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but the new Hunting & Fishing skill seems underpowered compared to Bushcraft. You only use Hunting & Fishing for gathering meaty foods, whereas Bushcraft allows foraging of food, camping, finding/following tracks, etc.

I suggest adding tracking to Hunting & Fishing instead of Bushcraft to make the former a more useful skill, e.g in the Riddermound adventure beta, instead of bushcraft to find the goblin tracks, use Hunting & Fishing.
 
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Sgirra
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Fri 06 Jan 2023, 10:59

Now there should still be a mechanic to make a situation harder, and i would for that pitch this: Challenge rolls.

The core idea is when you do something that would pose a challenge, the gm can declair it a challenging roll. This gives the player a skill level penalty for the roll, reducing it by a certain amount of levels depending on the challenge. These should be fixed values, so the player knows exactly how much to reduce (the following are just examples, values could be different)

Lesser challenge -3 (-15% chance of success)
Greater challenge -5 (-25%)
Imposing challenge -7(-35%).
I agree with your opinion on Opposed Rolls, but please, no penalties! Dragonbane made a good decision to cut modifiers completely and to just use boons and banes. If you are starting as you suggested, it won't take long until the first person demands a table for ranged combat modifiers. ;) If you do something that would pose a challenge, you get a bane or two. Done.

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