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Sgirra
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat 18 Apr 2020, 11:54

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 28 Dec 2022, 17:51

I do like the current official skill list very much, with Bluff, Persuasion and Bartering, and I will try to convince you to do so as well!

The reason is that different characters can specialize in different aspects of communication. If you only have one skill - Persuasion - you will solve every social problem with the same guy.
I appreciate that you are trying to convince me. But I run a Coriolis campaign for 3.5 years now, with a heavy focus on the social aspect of the setting, and the system has only one skill – Manipulation – for all those aspects. And you know what? It runs perfectly well and we are not missing any extra skills. Also, it’s not always the same person who has to face every social problem; it depends on the context. Sure, there is one member of the crew with the highest skill, but they are not always around and they are not the captain, and some NPCs refuse to speak with anybody than the captain. :D

On the other hand, Dragonbane has no problem that most likely only one person can use magic to solve problems, and not everyone is a highly skilled fighter. So I don't see many problems with one (or two) board social skills.

Also, my main problem is still that the skill list mixes broad (like performance) and very narrow (like bartering) skills randomly. This is my issue. I think they can easily come up with a skill list that is (a bit ;) ) longer than beta v1, but more balanced and well-thought than beta v2.
 
scarvis
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed 28 Dec 2022, 17:52

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 28 Dec 2022, 17:59

I definitely want to voice my opinion that there are too many skills now. I always prefer a tighter skill list to a bloated one, and the new list is quite bloated. I thought the original list was pretty close to perfect and when I play the game I’ll probably use the smaller version for my home games.
 
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Gaddeborg
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue 18 Feb 2014, 17:40

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 28 Dec 2022, 19:43

Also, my main problem is still that the skill list mixes broad (like performance) and very narrow (like bartering) skills randomly. This is my issue. I think they can easily come up with a skill list that is (a bit ;) ) longer than beta v1, but more balanced and well-thought than beta v2.
I can see your point, and I have spent endless years trying to make a proper skill-list for my BRP-hacks, where all skills are perfectly balanced. To my surprise, I always find that I prefer the old 80:s games with their unbalanced skill-lists. I mean, the balanced lists are not wrong and do not hamper my experience, but they are not as fun as the old skill lists (for me). Why?

Because the balanced skill list basically requires every character to have too many of the skills.

Everyone needs Bushcraft in order to travel between A to B and put up a tent. But that also means that everybody is a good tracker, huntsman and fisherman (since that is not a different skill). And equally good at identifying different creatures (since Bestiology does not exist).

All adventurers with self-esteem need Persuasion to haggle about how much they get for the loot from the latest dungeon. That also means that all adventurers are good at bluffing their way past checkpoints, or persuade the town elders that the smith is a werewolf.

Unbalanced skill-lists on the other hand, made in a correct way, can leave some specialized skills that you can totally ignore and still solve the adventure. But if you have them, the adventure plays out in a different way. Best is if the specialized skills are highly useful in certain conditions, like a ranger that has a high level in hunting/fishing and can track the bandits, but without it you have to wait until the bandits strike again. Or if they give a boon if you make the roll (like Bestiology - “the underside of the dragon is soft”), but possible to solve even without it (just hack the dragon away anyway).

Also, they give color to a character in a way that the ultra-slim balanced skill list does not.
“Persuasion, Mobility and Fighting” says little, but “Bluff, Climbing, Sneaking and Dagger”, or “Persuasion, Dodge, Jumping and Sword” gives a picture of a character.

That said, I still appreciate the slim balanced list, but not in all games. Drakar och Demoner (Dragonbane) has always been on the skill-heavy side of games (from present level to absurdly skill-heavy). I think the present level always has been the best for DoD, and I feel little need to make it yet another skill-light game (since there are others).
 
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Sgirra
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat 18 Apr 2020, 11:54

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Thu 29 Dec 2022, 11:41

I think we can agree to disagree, which is fine for me.

You know, I have been bought into RPGs in the early nineties, and I had my fair share of experience with long skill lists. I just moved on, but I understand that other people need different skills to flesh out their character (the same as others bring in the same variety with just one fighting skill or don't need skills at all to do this).

Dragonbane with its legacy might be in a difficult spot. I don't care about past editions of DoD; I don't know them. ;) I judge it from what it is now, and I’m not happy with the v2. And I think that there is a middle ground between v1 and v2.
I feel little need to make it yet another skill-light game (since there are others).
See, this is where our opinion differs. I feel little need to make it yet another extended skill game (since there are others). ;)
 
Saalaksin
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu 29 Dec 2022, 18:58

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Thu 29 Dec 2022, 19:55

I like the expanded Skill List and don't think we need to go awkwardly jamming things together again. The expanded skill list does nerf Player Characters a little bit (maybe a lot a bit, depending on how valuable one considers Swimming to be). I can see an argument for mixing staves into the "Spears" weapon group, and maybe squishing Hunting & Fishing into Bushcraft, but a lot of skills existing as they are no adds solid weight to decisions. (And yes! Your player character *will* have gaps in their trained skills knowledge! The two solutions to this are "find a friend" or "How exciting", as they should be for tabletop RPGs.)

Also: I am going to heartily come down on pleading that we don't ask them to make Intimidation and Persuasion different skills.

I would, however, like to express a desire to see a "master list" of Skills, condensed onto one easy-to-read table, instead of zooming through a bunch of individual skill descriptions.
 
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Master Dio
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed 07 Dec 2022, 20:39

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sat 31 Dec 2022, 07:48

My opinion/version on Skill and Heroic Abilities progression:

Per session:

Option 01: You gain 2 skill points. For skills with a value between 4 and 14, the cost per increase is 1 skill point. For skills with a value of 14 or higher, the cost per increase is 2 skill points, and it can only be done at the end of the session once every five sessions. And for each dragon or demon rolled in the session using an ability, at the end of the session, you roll a d20 for each of them; if the result exceeds your current skill level, it is increased by one, to a maximum of 18.

Option 02: You gain 2 skill points. For skills with a value between 4 and 14, the cost per increase is 1 skill point. For abilities with a value of 14 or greater, only if you roll a dragon or demon in the session using an ability, at the end of the session, you roll a d20 for each of them; if the result exceeds your current skill level, it is increased by one, to a maximum of 18.

Heroic Abilities: One after completing your first game session. You then get another heroic ability after your fifth, tenth, and fifteenth sessions, and so on after every five sessions. (Yeah, I like it that way)
 
Saalaksin
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu 29 Dec 2022, 18:58

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sat 31 Dec 2022, 11:43

The current roll a dragon/demon system seems to harken back to Chaosium traditions. Kind of giving the game an OSR feel, not unlike rolling for stats with no point buy
I dig it.
 
Von Ether
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed 31 Aug 2022, 16:09

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Mon 02 Jan 2023, 04:22

Page 39.

MASTER TANNER: There are few critters with armor in the core bestiary and only one so far in the Adventures. Getting only 1 Armor from killing a Manticore or a Minitour seems anticlimactic since it is the equivalent of leather armor, which is a common item.

Alternate suggestions:
  • Raise the minimum to 2.
OR
  • Unarmored monsters: the armor value is 1/10 of its HP (round down), max 3 Armor.

As leather armor, is it safe to assume the strange armor does not create a bane on stealth or evade rolls?
 
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Short Fey
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat 03 Dec 2022, 14:45

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Mon 02 Jan 2023, 23:17

Page 39.

MASTER TANNER: There are few critters with armor in the core bestiary and only one so far in the Adventures. Getting only 1 Armor from killing a Manticore or a Minitour seems anticlimactic since it is the equivalent of leather armor, which is a common item.

Alternate suggestions:
  • Raise the minimum to 2.
OR
  • Unarmored monsters: the armor value is 1/10 of its HP (round down), max 3 Armor.

As leather armor, is it safe to assume the strange armor does not create a bane on stealth or evade rolls?
This is something i feel 50/50 about.

On one hand sure, you want the tanning ability to feel useful (You most likely picked it up because making leather armor that has higher armor value than the standard 1 is sweet). But making it TOO common means that the players can fairly easily get lots of good armor naturally without having to pay for anything, or without actively having to hunt such a monster to make such armor, sense they are bound to encounter it by normal adventuring.

I think that SOME monsters could provide such leather, but not too many. I think if the player want to craft some special armor, it should be an adventure of itself. Hearing rumors of maybe a Manticor that has unnaturally durable hide, and then they have to try and track down and find that particular specimen. It makes it possible to get such armor, but they will have to put the effort into it, rather than skinning what ever monster that happens to have a thick hide.
Beware the fey!
 
User avatar
Melvin
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun 22 Dec 2019, 01:45

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 03 Jan 2023, 01:30

Page 39.

MASTER TANNER: There are few critters with armor in the core bestiary and only one so far in the Adventures. Getting only 1 Armor from killing a Manticore or a Minitour seems anticlimactic since it is the equivalent of leather armor, which is a common item.

Alternate suggestions:
  • Raise the minimum to 2.
OR
  • Unarmored monsters: the armor value is 1/10 of its HP (round down), max 3 Armor.

As leather armor, is it safe to assume the strange armor does not create a bane on stealth or evade rolls?
This is something i feel 50/50 about.

On one hand sure, you want the tanning ability to feel useful (You most likely picked it up because making leather armor that has higher armor value than the standard 1 is sweet). But making it TOO common means that the players can fairly easily get lots of good armor naturally without having to pay for anything, or without actively having to hunt such a monster to make such armor, sense they are bound to encounter it by normal adventuring.

I think that SOME monsters could provide such leather, but not too many. I think if the player want to craft some special armor, it should be an adventure of itself. Hearing rumors of maybe a Manticor that has unnaturally durable hide, and then they have to try and track down and find that particular specimen. It makes it possible to get such armor, but they will have to put the effort into it, rather than skinning what ever monster that happens to have a thick hide.
In that case... A Heroic Ability is really expensive (when you look others) and you can use it rarely. I'd prefer the previous profession of the artisan. You get the 3 in one.
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