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Short Fey
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 27 Dec 2022, 11:57

I have a few thoughts about some Heroic Abilities. I haven't playtested any of these, so take them for what they're worth:

Monster Hunter (p39), Treasure Hunter (p39) These heroic abilities just seem semi-magical and rub me the wrong way.

Lone Wolf (p38) and Quartermaster (p39) The Quartermaster heroic ability seems to do everything that Lone Wolf does and more.

Insight (p38), Disguise (p37) I don't think these actions should require heroic abilities. They should just be something anyone can roll for.
I can get watcha mean with Monster Hunter and Treasure Hunter, but i think you can easily hand wave it. Monster Hunter they might look for tracks and other clues for where there might be trouble or a fight, while Treasure hunter can have them think "Where would i hide treasures in a place like this?"

I can agree that Quatermaster is way better than Lone Wolf. Either make it so you just roll with a Boon instead of automatically succeeding, or give some additional buff to Lone Wolf (Like you can not be prevented having a rest this way at all)

I kinda like that Insight is a Heroic Ability. Being able to see through lies can be a pretty powerful tool, and having looked through the Adventure, having it early can very heavily alter the course of the story. Plus, it means players will just have to use their own intuition to try and figure out if someone is being honest or not.

Disguise i am 50/50 about. I agree that you should be able to do that outright (likely with bluffing), but considering that you not only get their appearance, but voice and demeanor as well, that's a pretty powerful trick in its own right. I would say that though that the fact that ANYBODY who knows the person you are impersonating can attempt to see through it might make it a bit weaker. Perhaps they can make an Awareness check if you do/say something that would be deemed out of character for the person your impersonation.
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Vile Traveller
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 27 Dec 2022, 14:17

Perhaps calling it "Impersonate" will make it clear. You could say anyone can disguise themselves as a town guard or servant or the like with the appropriate outfit, but it won't pass interrogation or close inspection. The heroic ability would be much more powerful than that.
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Kartong Karlsson
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 27 Dec 2022, 15:17

Perhaps calling it "Impersonate" will make it clear. You could say anyone can disguise themselves as a town guard or servant or the like with the appropriate outfit, but it won't pass interrogation or close inspection. The heroic ability would be much more powerful than that.
+1.
I wonder if the heroic ability should use an opposed test to avoid being detected? It would give the player a bit more control of the situation.
 
Jay Button
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 27 Dec 2022, 16:05

I would prefer to see fewer skills, but I think the skill list in this new beta does a good job of finding balance between the longer skill lists of earlier editions and newer game design. I would also prefer, however, to see each of the Attributes not used for Hit Points or Willpower Points to have an equal number of skills each (as it is in most Year Zero games), so that there is not a mechanical advantage to favor one Attribute over another in character creation.
 
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Gaddeborg
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 27 Dec 2022, 17:36

In this case, I would merge Persuasion, Bluffing, and Bartering back into one skill, but would add the suggested Intimidation, which is indeed a very different field of social interaction.
I do like the current official skill list very much, with Bluff, Persuasion and Bartering, and I will try to convince you to do so as well!

The reason is that different characters can specialize in different aspects of communication. If you only have one skill - Persuasion - you will solve every social problem with the same guy.

Do we need to sell our loot? ”Send forth the Knight/Bard/Monk to haggle!” (whoever has the highest in Persuasion).

Bluff our way into the castle by dressing up as kitchen staff? “Send forth the Knight!”

But, with the Bluff-skill, a Thief may solve some social interactions, and the Knight some others. The Bard, mastering both, can be a true con-artist (which is as it should).

And PC:s will continue to get shitty prices even if they are very convincing orators and liars, until they learn the rules of trade and how to haggle. It also opens up for a character that is just lucky with his advancement rolls. “Oh, sell the loot - Send forth Tim the Warrior, I don’t know why, but he really has a knack for that”. Also, bribing is a very good thing to use Haggle for.

As for the threathening persuasion - Intimidation, it would be nice in a game with even more skills. But to keep down the skill-list, and avoid silly stuff where people that ought to be intimidating do not have Intimidation, I think Persuasion or a single STR-check or something will work fine.
 
Rose
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 27 Dec 2022, 18:07

<>
Weasel (p39) This ability is just too good. It allows you to automatically avoid attacks and to get extra attacks on a foe as long as you have willpower and 2 or more foes near you, making it better then Double Slash and Fast Footwork combined. It doesn't even cost more willpower then either of those abilities.
You need to be in melee with two combatants at the same time for it to work though and whoever you "hide behind" can defend themselves.
I'm going to respond at length here, because this is the one heroic ability that I think breaks the game. Sorry if I'm too verbose.

Weasel is just too good not to take, especially if you're playing a combat-based character. It costs the same as Fast Footwork (One heroic ability, three willpower per use), but Fast Footwork only gives you a chance to avoid getting hit. Weasel guarantees it - and then causes an extra attack against the foe of your choice. And there's not limit on the number of times it can be used each round. If I'm starting a combat with 12 willpower points (not unlikely) I can ignore the first four attacks, and get four extra attacks on my enemies. Of course then I'm done, but by that time my enemies probably are too.

Now you're right that this tactic only works if at least two of your enemies have clumped up around you. But in my experience, that seems to happen a lot unless you're fighting singular foes (like dragons) or archers. And if the PCs are fighting tactically, knowing that one of them has the Weasel heroic ability, it's going to happen more often. If more then one PC takes this heroic ability, it gets even stronger. Also, the heroic ability Double Slash also requires that two or more foes are clumped up on you.

Now I really like the idea of this heroic ability. Action movies are full of baddies stabbing each other because the hero ducks out of the way at the last minute. So what would I do to fix it? I don't think increasing the willpower cost is a good idea. At a cost of 6 willpower it's hugely expensive, and it's still slightly better then Fast Footwork and Double Slash combined. Perhaps I suggest:

WEASEL
• Requirement: Evade 12
• Willpower Points: 3
If you are attacked and have another creature (friend or enemy, beyond the attacker) within 2 meters, and you successfully dodge or parry the attack, you can activate this ability to let the attack hit that creature instead of you. They can parry or dodge normally. This ability has no effect against area attacks.

This ability is pretty equivalent to Double Slash in utility, but the different requirement might make it more useful to thieves and such. Of course, it has a different feel in use.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 27 Dec 2022, 19:19

Combat tactics can be used by both sides (the adventurers doesn't have monopoly on using tactics) so as soon as the enemies sees that Mr. Weasel has the weasel ability, they can also use tactids to off-set it. Also whoever it is that Mr. Weasel hides behind (i.e. is attacked instead of him) can parry or dodge this if he has an action left.

It may be a bit cheap I admit, should probably cost 3 WP.
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hrvoje
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 28 Dec 2022, 12:55

Page 35. ASSASSIN
Your sneak attack (page 43) deals an extra D8 damage. This heroic ability can be combined with the profession
ability Backstabbing.
Replace profession ability with heroic ability.
 
Banquo
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 28 Dec 2022, 13:33

Heroic Abilities: just wanting to post some general feedback on heroic abilities - I like that abilities are all separate/ discreet and only linked to skill levels for requirements, with no “ability trees” where you need one ability to allow you to get another one.
Last edited by Banquo on Wed 28 Dec 2022, 15:45, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Gaddeborg
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 28 Dec 2022, 15:35


Weasel (p39) This ability is just too good. It allows you to automatically avoid attacks and to get extra attacks on a foe as long as you have willpower and 2 or more foes near you, making it better then Double Slash and Fast Footwork combined. It doesn't even cost more willpower then either of those abilities.
...
WEASEL
• Requirement: Evade 12
• Willpower Points: 3
If you are attacked and have another creature (friend or enemy, beyond the attacker) within 2 meters, and you successfully dodge or parry the attack, you can activate this ability to let the attack hit that creature instead of you. They can parry or dodge normally. This ability has no effect against area attacks.
+1

When I skimmed the text for this ability in the swedish version (where its called "Ynkrygg"="Coward"), I thought it was the classical ability to redirect attacks to your minions (i.e. friendlies). I missed the part about friend or foe.

Your proposed version with a need to dodge/parry seems to be much more balanced for the dodging hero from a matiné movie (where the swedish version could be "Vessla" or something instead). And still very useful.

There would also be room for a proper "Coward" heroic ability, where an evil NPC boss could redirect attacks towards his friendly minions.
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