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Short Fey
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat 03 Dec 2022, 14:45

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Fri 23 Dec 2022, 22:52

Page 12: Mallard ability Ill-Tempered - functionally useless. Using the optional pushing rules (let's be honest, everyone will), you can already push your roll in exchange for becoming Angry (or any other condition). Ill Tempered is basically a worse substitute of a push for 3 WP. This needs to change or no one will play Mallard.
The idea of the Mallard ability is that you can give yourself a boon on ANY roll except for INT based ones for 3wp, and you can use it before you roll. (The fantasy being the Mallard getting so mad they bruteforce their way through the problem). This is quite powerful overall, as most abilities only lets you have a boon on specific skills and situations. Even if you go with the pushing rule, it can avoid you getting an extra condition that would give you more banes on other skills.

The ability to allow Mallards to become angry is in case there is no specific way to get the Angry condition through normal gameplay and your NOT playing with the Pushing rules (Only very specific events lets you become angry, otherwise you must get a condition you already have in order to pick Angry). In the first version of the Demo, the ability basically said "If you play a Mallard, use the optional rule", but it got changed because people pointed out it was weird to enforce an optional rule on one specific kin.
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Kaybe
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri 14 May 2021, 18:26

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Fri 23 Dec 2022, 23:50

Page 12: Mallard ability Ill-Tempered - functionally useless. Using the optional pushing rules (let's be honest, everyone will), you can already push your roll in exchange for becoming Angry (or any other condition). Ill Tempered is basically a worse substitute of a push for 3 WP. This needs to change or no one will play Mallard.
The idea of the Mallard ability is that you can give yourself a boon on ANY roll except for INT based ones for 3wp, and you can use it before you roll. (The fantasy being the Mallard getting so mad they bruteforce their way through the problem). This is quite powerful overall, as most abilities only lets you have a boon on specific skills and situations. Even if you go with the pushing rule, it can avoid you getting an extra condition that would give you more banes on other skills.

The ability to allow Mallards to become angry is in case there is no specific way to get the Angry condition through normal gameplay and your NOT playing with the Pushing rules (Only very specific events lets you become angry, otherwise you must get a condition you already have in order to pick Angry). In the first version of the Demo, the ability basically said "If you play a Mallard, use the optional rule", but it got changed because people pointed out it was weird to enforce an optional rule on one specific kin.
It's still functionally worse than pushing UNLESS already Angry as this allows you to gain a boon without suffering any other conditions besides being Angry. If not already Angry, then just push your roll instead and choose Angry as your condition. Now one area I do find this interesting is that it can functionally cancel out the effects of a bane from another condition, allowing you to have a straight roll. Okay, maybe you're right and I underestimated this ability. It's very situational, but strong when needed.
 
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Short Fey
Posts: 398
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Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Sat 24 Dec 2022, 00:21

Page 12: Mallard ability Ill-Tempered - functionally useless. Using the optional pushing rules (let's be honest, everyone will), you can already push your roll in exchange for becoming Angry (or any other condition). Ill Tempered is basically a worse substitute of a push for 3 WP. This needs to change or no one will play Mallard.
The idea of the Mallard ability is that you can give yourself a boon on ANY roll except for INT based ones for 3wp, and you can use it before you roll. (The fantasy being the Mallard getting so mad they bruteforce their way through the problem). This is quite powerful overall, as most abilities only lets you have a boon on specific skills and situations. Even if you go with the pushing rule, it can avoid you getting an extra condition that would give you more banes on other skills.

The ability to allow Mallards to become angry is in case there is no specific way to get the Angry condition through normal gameplay and your NOT playing with the Pushing rules (Only very specific events lets you become angry, otherwise you must get a condition you already have in order to pick Angry). In the first version of the Demo, the ability basically said "If you play a Mallard, use the optional rule", but it got changed because people pointed out it was weird to enforce an optional rule on one specific kin.
It's still functionally worse than pushing UNLESS already Angry as this allows you to gain a boon without suffering any other conditions besides being Angry. If not already Angry, then just push your roll instead and choose Angry as your condition. Now one area I do find this interesting is that it can functionally cancel out the effects of a bane from another condition, allowing you to have a straight roll. Okay, maybe you're right and I underestimated this ability. It's very situational, but strong when needed.
How is it worse?

Pushing gives you a condition, which means any roll with that attribute is always done with a bane untill it is cured. And healing conditions on the field is not easy. You can cure one (or two once per shift rest if using mementos) per stretch rest, which can be interupted. And you can suffer conditions from the adventure itself, meaning the amount of pushing you can do per adventure can be unpredictable, (some monsters have multible ways to give you conditions). Likewise maybe you have already used your "dumpstats" for conditions, meaning if you push again you gotta put it on the attributes you actually use.

While you do get angry with the ability, you can then afterwards use your wp which you have more control over how you use and spend it, and won't give you more more conditions and therefor more banes. If a roll is really important, is'nt it better to spend 3wp before the roll and avoid getting another condition?

And again, the ability to get angry is in case you wanna get angry immediatly, rather to activly fail a roll, then push to get angry. This is especially true if your skills have gotten so high that the risk of failing is minimal, or you simply never failed a roll that you actually wanna push. Pushing is meant to be used on rolls you REALLY don't want to fail, not for smaller things just so you can activate an ability. Especially if you are a group ghat is not playing with the pushing rule (most will i'm sure, but some might skip it)
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CEBedford
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu 25 Jul 2019, 02:33

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Sat 24 Dec 2022, 04:47

The Mallard ability is dope. You can buy boons on any roll that isn’t INT based and just become angry. You don’t pile up additional conditions like with regular pushed rolls.

You can keep doing it even if you’re already angry. Meaning more than one boon for one condition and some willpower points.

Hell, even if you’re fully loaded with conditions, you can spend 3 WP to offset the bane you already have on any non-INT roll.

What’s not to love?
Last edited by CEBedford on Sat 24 Dec 2022, 16:18, edited 1 time in total.
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RobJN
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun 09 Oct 2022, 09:15

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Sat 24 Dec 2022, 15:06

Advancement Marks: Every time you roll a dragon or
demon (page 31) when using a skill, you tick the check
box next to that skill. At the end of the game session the
GM asks you the following questions about the session
you just completed. For each question that you can reply
“yes” to, and justify your answer, you may place another
advancement mark next to a skill of your choice. The GM
has the final word, but should adopt a permissive attitude.
Ok, that makes sense.
You may only place one mark per skill, but you can
check the box of a skill that has already been marked by
dragon or demon rolls. In other words, a skill can have
multiple advancement marks.
What? This doesn't make any sense to me. I can't place more than one mark. I can place more than one mark. What? What? What?
It is confusing. The most charitable read is that a skill can have as many Dragon/Demon marks as was rolled during the game. During the endgame session, you can only chose a skill once, even if it already has previous marks from Dragon/Demon rolls.
The second paragraph is poorly worded. It could do with some clarification that the "one mark per skill" applies to those gained by the questions themselves. Or it just needs to be axed entirely.
Advancement Marks: Every time you roll a dragon or demon (page 31) when using a skill, you tick the check box next to that skill. At the end of the game session the GM asks you the following questions about the session you just completed:
  • ✦ Did you participate in the game session?
    ✦ Did you explore a new location?
    ✦ Did you defeat one or more dangerous adversaries?
    ✦ Did you overcome an obstacle without using force?
    ✦ Did you roleplay according to your motivation?
For each question that you can reply “yes” to, and justify your answer, you may place an advancement mark next to a skill of your choice-- even one already marked by dragon/demon results. You may only place one "Yes" mark per skill; an additional "yes" must go to another skill.
Also, I don't think the GM alone should agree on the justification, but the entire table should be in consensus.
 
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CEBedford
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu 25 Jul 2019, 02:33

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Sat 24 Dec 2022, 15:10

Gaining Heroic Abilities is now too nebulous though in the right track here. I think it is worth specifying that a GM should always grant one at the end of a completed adventure as long as the party had to overcome a dangerous or risky challenge. As long as they face the goals and stakes of the adventure, and live to tell the tale, they should earn one.

Basically if they engage with the adventure, that’s how they advance. Seems like a very specific reward they can count on, and a motivation to actually lean into the danger and risk of being adventurers.

The GM should explicitly be expected to provide clear goals for the players and the players should count on earning heroic abilities for facing those challenges. The GM should also allow room for creative solutions to these problems.

As long as the players eagerly face tangible risk? I’m down for granting one per completed adventure. Players should just be able to know when to expect advancement, rather than hope their GM’s whims deem it so.
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CEBedford
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu 25 Jul 2019, 02:33

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Sat 24 Dec 2022, 16:15

I think there is definitely room for all Kin to have two special abilities. One that costs willpower, and one that does not. Similar to Mallards.

Human
Adaptive - This ability is currently too nebulous for the cost. It should just grant them a boon on any non-weapon or non-spell skill roll instead for 3 WP.

Skilled - 0 WP - Gain an extra trained skill at character creation.

Dwarves
Born Smith- 0 WP - Gain a boon on crafting rolls for items made of stone or metal.

Halfling
Naturally Discreet - 0 WP - Gain a boon on Sneaking rolls once per shift.

Elf
Ancient Knowledge - 3 WP - read the stars and gain a Boon to a single INT based (non-spell) skill roll.

Wolfkin
Scent of Prey - 0WP - Gain a boon on hunting and fishing rolls to find food.
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zcthu3
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed 29 May 2019, 10:34

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Sat 24 Dec 2022, 19:12

Gaining Heroic Abilities is now too nebulous though in the right track here. I think it is worth specifying that a GM should always grant one at the end of a completed adventure as long as the party had to overcome a dangerous or risky challenge. As long as they face the goals and stakes of the adventure, and live to tell the tale, they should earn one.

Basically if they engage with the adventure, that’s how they advance. Seems like a very specific reward they can count on, and a motivation to actually lean into the danger and risk of being adventurers.

The GM should explicitly be expected to provide clear goals for the players and the players should count on earning heroic abilities for facing those challenges. The GM should also allow room for creative solutions to these problems.

As long as the players eagerly face tangible risk? I’m down for granting one per completed adventure. Players should just be able to know when to expect advancement, rather than hope their GM’s whims deem it so.
While I agree that the ‘heroic deed’ option for awarding Heroic Abilities is a bit nebulous and effectively GM fiat, this suggestion means that in longer campaigns PCs will eventually end up with every Heroic Ability just by going on adventures - it’s one of the same problems that the ‘every five sessions’ version had. PCs just accumulate Heroic Abilities whether they make sense for the character or not. Heroic abilities are a way that characters differentiate from one another (mechanically speaking), which is lost if they’re just automatically awarded for going on adventures.

I much prefer a system where Heroic Abilities are rewarded/earned for justified ‘in-game’ reasons, which the current system does ie. they’re earned through mastering a skill (getting it to 18) or when the PCs earn it through doing something particularly ‘heroic’. This preserves the feeling that Heroic Abilities are special and need to be carefully chosen - they don’t just accumulate.
Personally I would also add a Training option similar to learning new spells (probably with a greater advancement point cost) where PCs can seek out a Teacher for a specific ability in game (which is in-keeping with the BRP roots of Dragonbane), but I prefer the current system to one where Heroic Abilities just accumulate by going on adventures (whether they make sense or not).
 
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CEBedford
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu 25 Jul 2019, 02:33

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Char

Sat 24 Dec 2022, 20:09


While I agree that the ‘heroic deed’ option for awarding Heroic Abilities is a bit nebulous and effectively GM fiat, this suggestion means that in longer campaigns PCs will eventually end up with every Heroic Ability just by going on adventures - it’s one of the same problems that the ‘every five sessions’ version had. PCs just accumulate Heroic Abilities whether they make sense for the character or not. Heroic abilities are a way that characters differentiate from one another (mechanically speaking), which is lost if they’re just automatically awarded for going on adventures.

I much prefer a system where Heroic Abilities are rewarded/earned for justified ‘in-game’ reasons, which the current system does ie. they’re earned through mastering a skill (getting it to 18) or when the PCs earn it through doing something particularly ‘heroic’. This preserves the feeling that Heroic Abilities are special and need to be carefully chosen - they don’t just accumulate.
Personally I would also add a Training option similar to learning new spells (probably with a greater advancement point cost) where PCs can seek out a Teacher for a specific ability in game (which is in-keeping with the BRP roots of Dragonbane), but I prefer the current system to one where Heroic Abilities just accumulate by going on adventures (whether they make sense or not).
That is fair. Still needs to be some clear path to advancement for the players. Skill advancement being random means that there’s not really a consistent way to improve which might make it a diminishing motivation for the players. Especially so if the GM is stingy with them. I can see players getting to 15 plus in a skill and feeling stagnant as advancement rolls repeatedly fail. Training for additional skill advancement checks would work as an option too. It would allow the player to focus on advancing a skill to 18 through training. I don’t really want there to be a way to straight up by max out a skill without the roll though. I like how skills advance, and now getting an 18 will really take some time most likely.

So right now it’s adventure and be heroic, and if you survive you might randomly earn an ability if the GM feels like it is warranted, or the dice are really very nice to you.

Maybe each player can identify the next ability they want and the GM can set a few long term milestone goals to earn it. Something the players can feel is consistent, even if it takes time.
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zcthu3
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed 29 May 2019, 10:34

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Char

Sat 24 Dec 2022, 20:28

Maybe each player can identify the next ability they want and the GM can set a few long term milestone goals to earn it. Something the players can feel is consistent, even if it takes time.
Yes, that’s the sort of thing I’d be looking for in terms of ‘training’ - the player states what the character seeks to learn and the GM outlines what is necessary to do it. I still suggest an advancement point cost (but might be in the minority on that) and note that other BRP offshoots like Mythras and the old Mongoose RuneQuest 2 did this for ‘spells’ and special abilities. You could spend time training and spend a certain number of advancements (which work in a similar way to Dragonbane) to gain a new ability. They sat alongside the skill system as a mechanism for character development depending on where you put your focus.
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