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Saalaksin
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu 29 Dec 2022, 18:58

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Thu 29 Dec 2022, 19:34

Small Bits of Feedback:
Overall, really liking the new Skills system and its reflections here, keep up the good work!
Please note that my feedback here is limited to English, as my Svenska isn't nearly good enough to read that version of the PDF, nor is it good enough to refer back to previous editions of DoD to afford for adherence to tradition...

General Feedback: Kin: There's no Orcs here and that makes me, personally, sad, because I'm a weirdo that likes Orcs.

Human Kin Ability: Adaptive seems fairly lackluster when compared against every other Kin ability. The skills are broad enough (even after the expansion of the skills list) that this feels kind of pointless from a first read, especially for non-Mages? While I like the idea of trying to convince my GM to let me roll Elementalisim instead of Swimming, I'm not sure its ever going to be worth three Willpower points.

Profession: Artisan: It feels really weird and wrong that the job that can best be described as "Make stuff" has five of its seven Profession Skills be various flavours of "kill thing". Understanding that this is a fantasy game about adventurers and we can expect combat to be common, I'm fine with a few Combat skills, but this makes Artisan seem kind of like Better Fighter.

Profession: Fighter: This Profession doesn't feel like it has an identity. Most players are going to pick one or two weapons/weapon classes they use, to the exclusion of all others, so why pick the Profession whose gimmick is "Has access to several weapons as Trained Skills"? Melee combat-focused players are going to pick Knight or Artisan, ranged combat-focused players are going to pick Hunter, and poor Fighter with its positively metal "Gravemaker" epithet gets left by the wayside. Is it because Fighter gets Evade as a Profession Skill?

Profession: Mage: Why does Mage only have six options under Profession Skills instead of the other Professions' seven?

Professions: Mariner: Much better than in the previous version! Making Swimming and Seafaring skills gave Mariner a solid identity (also, I missed it the first time but this is yet another "better Fighter".)

Professions: Merchant: This is just Thief that's bad at stabbing and sneaking, and I love that for it.

Professions: Scholar: This is just "I flunked out of mage college" and I love that for it.
 
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Short Fey
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat 03 Dec 2022, 14:45

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Thu 29 Dec 2022, 20:08

Small Bits of Feedback:
Overall, really liking the new Skills system and its reflections here, keep up the good work!
Please note that my feedback here is limited to English, as my Svenska isn't nearly good enough to read that version of the PDF, nor is it good enough to refer back to previous editions of DoD to afford for adherence to tradition...

General Feedback: Kin: There's no Orcs here and that makes me, personally, sad, because I'm a weirdo that likes Orcs.

Human Kin Ability: Adaptive seems fairly lackluster when compared against every other Kin ability. The skills are broad enough (even after the expansion of the skills list) that this feels kind of pointless from a first read, especially for non-Mages? While I like the idea of trying to convince my GM to let me roll Elementalisim instead of Swimming, I'm not sure its ever going to be worth three Willpower points.

Profession: Artisan: It feels really weird and wrong that the job that can best be described as "Make stuff" has five of its seven Profession Skills be various flavours of "kill thing". Understanding that this is a fantasy game about adventurers and we can expect combat to be common, I'm fine with a few Combat skills, but this makes Artisan seem kind of like Better Fighter.

Profession: Fighter: This Profession doesn't feel like it has an identity. Most players are going to pick one or two weapons/weapon classes they use, to the exclusion of all others, so why pick the Profession whose gimmick is "Has access to several weapons as Trained Skills"? Melee combat-focused players are going to pick Knight or Artisan, ranged combat-focused players are going to pick Hunter, and poor Fighter with its positively metal "Gravemaker" epithet gets left by the wayside. Is it because Fighter gets Evade as a Profession Skill?

Profession: Mage: Why does Mage only have six options under Profession Skills instead of the other Professions' seven?

Professions: Mariner: Much better than in the previous version! Making Swimming and Seafaring skills gave Mariner a solid identity (also, I missed it the first time but this is yet another "better Fighter".)

Professions: Merchant: This is just Thief that's bad at stabbing and sneaking, and I love that for it.

Pressions: Scholar: This is just "I flunked out of mage college" and I love that for it.
Fight's main advantage is that they are the "weapons guy". Now i get your point that they don't learn any other skills naturally which imo i think they should have some options off, i do like the idea that they have the most options when it comes to weapons. Sense the other characters are likely only going to excel on one, maybe two weapon types, it puts a limit on what they can use. A fighter could effectively pick up and quickly use any weapon an opponent might carry and use it straight away, or switch on the fly based on the need. It also means if there is a cool weapon you find along the road, your more likely going to be able to use it (imagine doing an adventure, finding a sweet sword, only to realize the party has no one who can use em).

As for the Artisan, i can see the idea of why they have a lot of weapons. Axes are if they are a Carpenter, Hammers if they are a Smith, Knives if they are a tanner. Now why swords are on there, i do not know.

As for the human Kin ability, i think it is useful, but it depends on how you USE the ability. For an example, in the demo, the player playing the wizard, when he sprung a trap and had to dodge it used instead of Evade Myths & Legends, on the argument "as i was fiddling with this, i was thinking in a lot of stories, this sort of thing would likely be trapped so i was prepared to duck just in case", which i found acceptable. Most likely, the way your going to use it is "How can i spin a tale in using one of my best skills instead of the one this one would normally require?".
Beware the fey!
 
Saalaksin
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu 29 Dec 2022, 18:58

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Thu 29 Dec 2022, 21:05

Small Bits of Feedback:
Overall, really liking the new Skills system and its reflections here, keep up the good work!
Please note that my feedback here is limited to English, as my Svenska isn't nearly good enough to read that version of the PDF, nor is it good enough to refer back to previous editions of DoD to afford for adherence to tradition...

General Feedback: Kin: There's no Orcs here and that makes me, personally, sad, because I'm a weirdo that likes Orcs.

Human Kin Ability: Adaptive seems fairly lackluster when compared against every other Kin ability. The skills are broad enough (even after the expansion of the skills list) that this feels kind of pointless from a first read, especially for non-Mages? While I like the idea of trying to convince my GM to let me roll Elementalisim instead of Swimming, I'm not sure its ever going to be worth three Willpower points.

Profession: Artisan: It feels really weird and wrong that the job that can best be described as "Make stuff" has five of its seven Profession Skills be various flavours of "kill thing". Understanding that this is a fantasy game about adventurers and we can expect combat to be common, I'm fine with a few Combat skills, but this makes Artisan seem kind of like Better Fighter.

Profession: Fighter: This Profession doesn't feel like it has an identity. Most players are going to pick one or two weapons/weapon classes they use, to the exclusion of all others, so why pick the Profession whose gimmick is "Has access to several weapons as Trained Skills"? Melee combat-focused players are going to pick Knight or Artisan, ranged combat-focused players are going to pick Hunter, and poor Fighter with its positively metal "Gravemaker" epithet gets left by the wayside. Is it because Fighter gets Evade as a Profession Skill?

Profession: Mage: Why does Mage only have six options under Profession Skills instead of the other Professions' seven?

Professions: Mariner: Much better than in the previous version! Making Swimming and Seafaring skills gave Mariner a solid identity (also, I missed it the first time but this is yet another "better Fighter".)

Professions: Merchant: This is just Thief that's bad at stabbing and sneaking, and I love that for it.

Pressions: Scholar: This is just "I flunked out of mage college" and I love that for it.
Fight's main advantage is that they are the "weapons guy". Now i get your point that they don't learn any other skills naturally which imo i think they should have some options off, i do like the idea that they have the most options when it comes to weapons. Sense the other characters are likely only going to excel on one, maybe two weapon types, it puts a limit on what they can use. A fighter could effectively pick up and quickly use any weapon an opponent might carry and use it straight away, or switch on the fly based on the need. It also means if there is a cool weapon you find along the road, your more likely going to be able to use it (imagine doing an adventure, finding a sweet sword, only to realize the party has no one who can use em).

As for the Artisan, i can see the idea of why they have a lot of weapons. Axes are if they are a Carpenter, Hammers if they are a Smith, Knives if they are a tanner. Now why swords are on there, i do not know.

As for the human Kin ability, i think it is useful, but it depends on how you USE the ability. For an example, in the demo, the player playing the wizard, when he sprung a trap and had to dodge it used instead of Evade Myths & Legends, on the argument "as i was fiddling with this, i was thinking in a lot of stories, this sort of thing would likely be trapped so i was prepared to duck just in case", which i found acceptable. Most likely, the way your going to use it is "How can i spin a tale in using one of my best skills instead of the one this one would normally require?".
Even with Fighter being Weapons Guy, in a Skill-based system like this, if Alfonse Gravemaker, Fighterman Extraordinaire is running around with a Sword and stumbled across the Great Hammer Of Face-Smashing in a crypt, somewhere, they're still going to have an 18 in Sword versus a 14 in Hammer and Sword is still going to be better. There's going to be less of a gap giving Alfonse the Hammer than giving it to Quacksley Hagglesworth, Merchant, but neither of them are likely to switch to it for all their face-smashing needs and are equally likely to pawn it off at the nearest Guy That Likes Researching Magical Hammers.

Re: The Artisan: while some of the Weapons skills do make a slantwise sense (namely, Hammers, Knives, and Brawling), it still feels wrong that Five of their Seven profession skills (and they must take five skills form the list) are weapons and the Artisan doesn't have, like Bartering (For haggling over the costs of raw goods) or Myths and Legends (to know about that legendary metal, Mythriltanium).
 
zcthu3
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed 29 May 2019, 10:34

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Thu 29 Dec 2022, 21:12


Re: The Artisan: while some of the Weapons skills do make a slantwise sense (namely, Hammers, Knives, and Brawling), it still feels wrong that Five of their Seven profession skills (and they must take five skills form the list) are weapons and the Artisan doesn't have, like Bartering (For haggling over the costs of raw goods) or Myths and Legends (to know about that legendary metal, Mythriltanium).
That’s fair, particularly in regard to Bartering. I suggest that it would be worth revisiting the skills associated with each profession once the skill list is finalised.
 
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Short Fey
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat 03 Dec 2022, 14:45

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Thu 29 Dec 2022, 23:17

Even with Fighter being Weapons Guy, in a Skill-based system like this, if Alfonse Gravemaker, Fighterman Extraordinaire is running around with a Sword and stumbled across the Great Hammer Of Face-Smashing in a crypt, somewhere, they're still going to have an 18 in Sword versus a 14 in Hammer and Sword is still going to be better. There's going to be less of a gap giving Alfonse the Hammer than giving it to Quacksley Hagglesworth, Merchant, but neither of them are likely to switch to it for all their face-smashing needs and are equally likely to pawn it off at the nearest Guy That Likes Researching Magical Hammers.
14 in hammer is still better than a 7 at best. It's a success chance of 70%, so you would be hitting the enemy very consistently, compared to 35%. If there is someone who is focusing on hammers, sure at that time, might be better to pawn it off to Mr Hammer, but your still going to have that flexibility that other characters might not have. What if your weapon breaks from a parrying, or due to story reasons you lose your current equipment? You can just scoop up what you can find and your set, compared to the players who only have the skills in one weapon type, and is either going to perform sub-optimally, or need to find that weapon they are good with.
Likewise you can switch your weapons depending on the need. For example need an extra ranger? You can pick bows or crossbows. Sure might not be STR based and Miss Hunter might do better at it, but as long your AGL is decent your going to be a decent back up.

And sure, this is not going to cover every situation as it would be depending on the groups, but with the fact that there are optional rules where the damage type matters (Damage types p45, and Special attacks p49) your choice of weapon matters even more.

Now don't misunderstand me. I do agree that i think Fighter could have some non weapon based skills in their list.
Like from the top of my head i could consider Bushwacking (Being a soldier you'd likely know how to march and manage the wilderness), Crafting (repair and maintaing your gear), Awareness (being aware of when trouble could strike), and possibly Monster Lore (Having experience in fighting monsters before).
But i think the idea of one proffession being the "Weapons guy" is still an good niche to fill in.
Beware the fey!
 
Von Ether
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed 31 Aug 2022, 16:09

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Sun 01 Jan 2023, 22:17



Snob, snobby and snobbish are uncommon in the US currently. My mother (71yo) uses it all the time to describe my Aunt (76yo) lol.
Which part of the US? I just used it yesterday.
Western US, Colorado mostly but I currently live in Kansas. My family is from Michigan and Ohio originally. I feel like its more common in the north east.
I'd say more Southern. I grew up in Oklahoma and Kansas and now live in Florida.
 
Von Ether
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed 31 Aug 2022, 16:09

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Mon 02 Jan 2023, 01:13

I'm putting in a vote for liking how you chose your Kin, then Profession, then Roll for stats. It makes it feel as if the first two choices are more important.
 
Tancred
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat 18 Jun 2022, 13:21

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Thu 05 Jan 2023, 03:38

I think there is definitely room for all Kin to have two special abilities. One that costs willpower, and one that does not. Similar to Mallards.

Human
Adaptive - This ability is currently too nebulous for the cost. It should just grant them a boon on any non-weapon or non-spell skill roll instead for 3 WP.

Skilled - 0 WP - Gain an extra trained skill at character creation.

Dwarves
Born Smith- 0 WP - Gain a boon on crafting rolls for items made of stone or metal.

Halfling
Naturally Discreet - 0 WP - Gain a boon on Sneaking rolls once per shift.

Elf
Ancient Knowledge - 3 WP - read the stars and gain a Boon to a single INT based (non-spell) skill roll.

Wolfkin
Scent of Prey - 0WP - Gain a boon on hunting and fishing rolls to find food.
These are a great idea, and each Kin having a 0 WP option lines up nicely with Mallards. Totally agree on Adaptive, I think a boon for 3 WP is a better approach.

Scent of Prey could also apply to tracking as well.
 
elstiko
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu 05 Jan 2023, 10:44

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Thu 05 Jan 2023, 10:46

Does anyone find the Derived base chance fiddly/difficult to remember? I wish it was just half stat for untrained, full stat for trained.
 
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Short Fey
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat 03 Dec 2022, 14:45

Re: Dragonbane BETA v2 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 2 Your Character

Thu 05 Jan 2023, 11:22

Does anyone find the Derived base chance fiddly/difficult to remember? I wish it was just half stat for untrained, full stat for trained.
Tbh i find "half at untrained" more fiddly, sense your only going to start the game with at best less than 1/3rd of the skills trained (in the betas current state).

While i can not say i eemember the base chance from the top of my head, considering that this only comes up at character creation you can just resort to the rulebook at that point.
Beware the fey!
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