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Short Fey
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Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sat 03 Dec 2022, 21:19

I'm happy with increasing the number of skills. Not sure if up to 25 but i wouldn't mind seeing a few more in the very least. Especially to charisma, which i think atm is very lacking.

If i were to make a few suggestions, i would do the following. For charisma, i would suggest "Bluff", "Command" and "Empathy".

Bluff is for deception, withholding information, but also for your ability to keep a poker face. (So even if you are scared senseless, you can use bluff to act as if you are unphased at the danger).

Command would be using charisma, authority, influence or intimidation to make a character do something you want them too. In contrast to Persuasion, which is more making npcs seeing things your way or come to some form of agreement, Command have you enforce your will over them to make them do what you want. Now, similar to the rules on persuasion (page 36) you can't force npcs to do things that would be harmful or detrimental to them. (So can't try to invoke your noble father's name to make the storekeeper give you an item for free, for instance)

So some examples of what command could do could be if you are on a ship and the crew is panicking due to a monster attack, you can roll command to yell them to get back to their stations. You can use command to invoke your reputation (good or bad) to make people recognize who they are dealing with. Or you force them to do something by being intimidating.
A potential drawback can be that abusing command can make the npcs dislike you, and potentially bite you in the ass later.
Likewise, command could be used for skill checks involving controlling animals (So the Hunters "Animal Kinship" feature could use Command instead of Persuade)

Empathy is your ability to read others, such as noticing if they are upset, displaying a character tick, or recognize their general mood (Like understanding if that wolf is happy to see you, or if it is about to get angry and start growling). Should note Empathy is NOT a lie detector. You might recognize that the person you're talking to is acting nervous, but that doesn't mean necessarily that they are lying to you.

Other skill i could consider would to detach a few things from "Lore". Not remove it entirely (it can still be the skill in knowing about myths, legends, monster and magic), but i would have a "Knowledge/Academics" skill. This would basically cover book knowledge (Maths, history, languages, flora and fauna, etc).

Other skills, but not as sure about i could consider would be "World" (Knowledge about nations, recent events, influential people and factions etc), "Crafting" (Your ability to make stuff, be it tools, weapons, potions, or cobble together something out of what you have at hands) and "Performance" (Play music, acting, making tricks and displays).
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Guvnor
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Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sun 04 Dec 2022, 17:39

I like a short list.
Trudvang Legends and RuneQuest3 had far too many and the latest RuneQuest is a nightmare.
I was happy with 16, 25 is too many but I'd settle in the middle.
They do need to be wide and comprehensive in description I feel.
 
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First Age
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Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sun 04 Dec 2022, 19:28

If we discount the 7 weapons skills for a moment, which I think we can for the purposes of this conversation, then we currently have 9 general skills in the Beta. Increasing the skill list by 9 skills would take the general skill list up to 18. Coincidentally, that's the same number as D&D 5e, which has a pretty good skill list, that strikes a good balance of usability, without overdoing it.

I think it is OK to compare Dragnbane to RQ3, but only for dramatic effect, as I agree we don't want the skill list to inflate too much. RQ3 had roughly 40 skills (with some specialised brake out skills on top) before you got to weapon skills. Trudvang Chronicles had a huge number when counting specialisations and disciplines, and RQ:G rather lost the plot when it came to skills. What's being proposed for Dragonbane isn't anything like the level of those games.

So, depending on what they are, I'm all for the increase proposed. I like many of those proposed in this feedback thread. For emphasis I might reinforce:
  • Command (WIL?)
  • Craft (INT?)
  • Insight (CHA)
  • Performance (CHA)
  • Riding (CHA or AGL?)
I have other thoughts on Lore specialisations, but I can live without. Mobility is a catch all and wonder if Athletics might also add something.

Having a broader list of skills will also provide for prgression for longer campaigns.

Watching with interest!
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Vile Traveller
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Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sun 04 Dec 2022, 22:12

Given Drakar och Demoner's intended niche as a basic, fun system the skill list should certainly be kept to a carefully though-out minimum.

There seems to be a certain amount of re-inventing the wheel in the skill names. I would prefer to stick with commonly-used terms such as Survival (Bushcraft seems too specific), Athletics (Mobility), Manipulation (Sleight of Hand), Stealth (Sneaking doesn't sound like hiding).

I agree that CHA at the moment looks like a weak link with only one related skill, several useful additions have already been mentioned.

Are Awareness and Spot Hidden different enough to warrant two INT skills?

As regards weapon skills, I feel nothing would be lost if they were reduced to just two, simple weapons and martial weapons (rather like D&D 5E). The occasional exotic weapon could then be its own skill.
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Short Fey
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Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sun 04 Dec 2022, 22:30

Given Drakar och Demoner's intended niche as a basic, fun system the skill list should certainly be kept to a carefully though-out minimum.

I agree that Charisma at the moment looks like a weak link with only one related skill, several useful additions have already been mentioned.

Are Awareness and Spot Hidden different enough to warrant two skills?

As regards weapon skills, I feel nothing would be lost if they were reduced to just two, simple weapons and martial weapons (rather like D&D 5E). The occasional exotic weapon could then be its own skill.
Personally i would love for the weapons skills to stay the way they are. The reason is i think it is a decent way of differentiating players from one and another (one person might be the "sword" guy, the other the "Lance and throwing spear" guy, even if your both use a very martial background), and i like the idea that you have to actually learn to use the weapon in question rather than your just "good" with a weapon just because you have martial training (swinging an sword is not the same as using an spear or an hand axe).

I do think that there could be more heroic abilities or special maneuvers that makes each weapon feel a bit more unique.
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Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sun 04 Dec 2022, 22:51

As regards weapon skills, I feel nothing would be lost if they were reduced to just two, simple weapons and martial weapons (rather like D&D 5E). The occasional exotic weapon could then be its own skill.
Personally i would love for the weapons skills to stay the way they are. The reason is i think it is a decent way of differentiating players from one and another (one person might be the "sword" guy, the other the "Lance and throwing spear" guy, even if your both use a very martial background), and i like the idea that you have to actually learn to use the weapon in question rather than your just "good" with a weapon just because you have martial training (swinging an sword is not the same as using an spear or an hand axe).
I understand that point of view, and I tend to feel that way with crunchier games like RuneQuest 3 for example. To further elaborate what I mean:

  • In practice, players will choose certain weapons for their characters based on size, character concept, personal preference, etc., so you would still have the 'sword guy', the lance and throwing spear guy', and so forth.
  • Encumbrance limits how many weapons can be carried, so there won't be the 'golf bag of weapons' syndrome even if characters could theoretically use many.
  • You still apply STR or AGL as appropriate, so some characters will be good ranged fighter and some good in melee (or both).
  • There is some flexibility in picking up different weapons if a character loses or breaks theirs.

You just end up with fewer skills on the character sheet, freeing up the space for something else. In terms of in-game justification if needed, professional fighters tend to be trained in a range of weapons, not just the one (hence 'Martial', though the actual word could be something else), while simple weapons are all equally easy to pick up.

Of course, my real motivation here is to make every skill on the list work hard for its inclusion.
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Gute
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Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Mon 05 Dec 2022, 10:35

I would like some skill diversification in relation to travel. The travel rules use the same skill for all the tests. When a character masters the one skill it becomes a bit of a no-challenge!
 
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Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Mon 05 Dec 2022, 12:04

Tomas wrote this on another Swedish forum (direct translation so the names of the skills may change):
Ok, like this then?

Bluff (CHA)
Botany (INT)
Sleight of Hand (AGL)
Spot Hidden (INT)
Crafts (STR)
History (INT)
Jumping & Climbing (AGL)
Hunting & Fishing (AGL)
Haggle (CHA)
Healing (INT)
Riding (AGL)
Swimming (AGL)
Seamanship (INT)
Sneaking (AGL)
Linguistics (INT)
Dodge (AGL)
Performa (CHA)
Awareness (INT)
Survival (INT)
Zoology (INT)
Persuasion (CHA)

Crossbows (AGL)
Bows (AGL)
Knives (AGL)
Blunt Weapons (STR)
Brawling (STR)
Slings (AGL)
Spears (STR)
Swords (STR)
Axes (STR)

Comments:
  • This is a significant increase but doesn't change how the game is played.
  • Base Chances remains high (an average of 5, max 7) by which PCs overall competence remains decent even though there are more skills. The number of Trained Skills is increased from 5-7 to 6-8 (depending on age).
  • All skills will have a big potential to come into play in the games introduction campaign (well, perhaps not Seamanship).
  • More to choose from for the "side professions" so we don't just have one profession = one skill.
  • This will mean more skills to spend their Advancement Marks on.
  • The amount of combat skills is lower but still about a third. We think that this is needed - combat is after all a central part of the game. To have just two combat skills (melee and range) would just lead to that all players would choose those which would devalue the Fighter and the Knight. Just to be able to pick up any weapon should be the Fighters specialty.
  • Profession abilities becomes heroic abilities. There is a design choice here how the profession gets their specialty - either by having more skills or to have profession abilities. Both doesn't work. We think that more skill is the right choice for DoD regarding this.
There are many good ideas how to do this (skip attributes, skip skills, etc.) but that would be to go to far from the original game that this game is based on.
There is a balance when making a system for DoD - the game needs to be a game that is easy to play, intuitive, consistent game that can attract new players but also keeps the legacy of DoD and also to some degree satisfy the players of the older editions of the game.
I think the above list will do well regarding this balance.
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Mock
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Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Mon 05 Dec 2022, 18:21

I am not heartened by the promise to expand the skill list. Twenty-five is a lot. Even Shadowrun doesn't have that many anymore.

If I were the one making the call, I would condense the weapon skills to 3 (melee, ranged, brawling-or-equivalent), leaving room for at most 3 new skills. I'd still aim for 16, that's a good number.
 
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Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Mon 05 Dec 2022, 19:24

Another point in favour of weapon skills is that they're gear-based. In play PCs will be distinguished by the weapon(s) they carry anyway, so there's really no need to split weapon skills so finely. For example, some will prefer crossbows, some bows. I've never seen PCs carry both, so that's already differentiating them.
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