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Vargock
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Questions about Torches, Oil Lamps and Dungeon-Exploration

Fri 11 Nov 2022, 22:23

Hello folks! I'm a total newbie when it comes to Forbidden Lands system, but I "THINK" I'm about to run a game on Sunday, so here I am, asking you for some clarifications. See, I've been reading through the core books and there are a few design choices that made me rather… confused.

Game seems to focus a lot on Survival. There's this really nifty Resource Die system for Food, Water, Arrows and... Torches. That immediately tells me that light will be an important and scarce resource in this game — just like in classic Dungeon Crawls, where Light was as valuable as gold.

From what I understand, there are basically two "Time Scales" in Forbidden Lands: Quarter Days for Hex Traversal and Quarter Hours for Dungeon Exploration. Seeing that Torches require Resource Die to be rolled every turn/15 minutes, I can only conclude that Torches are intended to be used while Exploring and not while Traversing the global map. And for Exploration, that seems just perfect. I can easily imagine it in play: You tell players “Okay guys, you move to the next room — who’s gonna roll for Torches?”, and the entire party holds their breath as Jon rolls their last D6 torch die, all while the exit from this bloody mines is nowhere to be seen and the footsteps from corridor behind them are getting louder.

That would be all good, if not for one thing that breaks everything and makes my heart bleed — Oil and Lanterns. Those things are not only cheap, but they last for the whole Quarter Day instead of Quarter Hour (this term, by the way, was never actually defined in books, even though it’s used the whole bunch in Bitter Reach and the entirety of two times in Raven’s Purge). All that makes Oil Lanterns perfect for both Hex Traversal and Dungeon Exploration.

Then… what is the use for torches at all? Like, literally — why make them special by incorporating them into Resource Die system if there are immediately replaced by Oil Lanterns? Cause Resource Die is pretty elegant and abstract system — probably the smartest design element that I’ve seen in the entire book. And Oil Lanterns are not part of it, instead relying on same old, same old Inventory Slot system. Am I being an idiot or is it just really counter-intuitive design decision that kind of destroys one of the main tensions of dungeon crawling — struggle to keep the light going?
 
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Konungr
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Re: Questions about Torches, Oil Lamps and Dungeon-Exploration

Sat 12 Nov 2022, 14:49

The issue with an oil lantern is finding fuel. It's not like lamp oil is just around. Most inland villages won't have access to anything like a ready supply of it.

That up to the GM though. They need to stock stores appropriately.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Questions about Torches, Oil Lamps and Dungeon-Exploration

Sat 12 Nov 2022, 15:25

You can fight with torches and you can throw them to the ground somewhere and they still burn. Also, you can easily make torches in the fields.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
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Vargock
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Re: Questions about Torches, Oil Lamps and Dungeon-Exploration

Sat 12 Nov 2022, 17:57

While the argument that Oil would be difficult to find makes sense from our real-world perspective, books designate both Lanterns and Lamp Oil as Common items, which means that the are "generally available in decent quantities". Plus, Lamp Oil costs 2 copper per Quarter Day and is of Light weight, while Torches cost 5 copper per Resource Die (which is rolled every 15 minutes) and are of Normal weight. So, even if we assume that Resource Die system will allow Torches to last longer than 15 minutes, The Cost VS Value is still on Oil's side.

Crafting Torches is indeed easier than crafting Lamp Oil, but here's the way I see it: each character in a group will most likely stock up on Torches while in a Village — that's already at least 3d12 Torch Dies, depending on your Group's size. Then, some players will also buy one or two flasks of Lamp Oil. That's another two Quarter Days. From skimming through different Adventure Sites, I can't imagine this amount of Light running out, like, ever — most Adventure Sites don't even have enough Rooms for one flask of Lamp Oil to run out, assuming each room takes about 1 turn to explore and move through.

Regarding using Torches in battle — both for hitting with them and just dropping them on the ground — are there any actual rules for that? Assuming there aren't any hard-coded rules, it's simply DM-dependant, therefore can hardly be called an advantage. Plus, there's nothing stopping PCs from strapping Oil Lantern to their belts for combat or dousing enemies in Oil and then lightning them of fire.

And yes, I know DM can come up with some reason to adjust all of that, but I'm asking about the clear design conundrum that I see here, the way it is written in the book.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Questions about Torches, Oil Lamps and Dungeon-Exploration

Sat 12 Nov 2022, 18:19

Some monsters take damage from fire and regarding dropping or throwing torches on the ground, that is just dropping an object or throwing an object, one is free and the other is an action.

"Strapping an oil lantern to the belt". That is probably the last place I would like to have an oil lantern. My players when they used a lantern, they just put it down.


Regarding buying items, not all settlements have markets, they sometimes just have a craftsman so some of the items on the equipment list may not be available there even though it is common.


But in the end, yes, lanterns are better, usually, but markets or traveling peddlers are not always available, but this can vary from GM to GM, depending how they see the world.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
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Vargock
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Re: Questions about Torches, Oil Lamps and Dungeon-Exploration

Sun 13 Nov 2022, 12:33

Cause this thing bothers me too much, I've been thinking this issue over. Would simply making Lamp Oil an Uncommon item solve the Oil's supremacy?
 
Farydia
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Re: Questions about Torches, Oil Lamps and Dungeon-Exploration

Sun 13 Nov 2022, 13:48

Cause this thing bothers me too much, I've been thinking this issue over. Would simply making Lamp Oil an Uncommon item solve the Oil's supremacy?
After two years and a bit of playing this game, I'd say oil lamp supremacy is a non-problem. Torches are more robust, lanters break more easily, especially when getting into fights. And light scarcity is not an actual problem in most cases. And if it is, the lantern will run out at basically the same point, possibly earlier than your stack of torches. If your players prefer a lantern to the torch, I don't see why they shouldn't have one. FWIW, my groups never even asked if they could buy a lantern.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Questions about Torches, Oil Lamps and Dungeon-Exploration

Sun 13 Nov 2022, 14:03

After two years and a bit of playing this game, I'd say oil lamp supremacy is a non-problem. <>
My 'Raven's Purge' campaign lasted 58 sessions and I must say this never came up. My players sometimes used a lantern, they did prefer torches though because they are more all-rounded. Caves and dungeons are usually not that big so having d12 torches will most often be enough.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
JohnWithAgun
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Re: Questions about Torches, Oil Lamps and Dungeon-Exploration

Mon 14 Nov 2022, 09:46

Cause this thing bothers me too much, I've been thinking this issue over. Would simply making Lamp Oil an Uncommon item solve the Oil's supremacy?
Just remove it all together ?
It doesn't fit with the kinda game you want to run, takes out excitement and its suspiciously cheap :P

Edit:
General question, were lantern / lamp oil common in the olden day? what were they made of ?
 
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Vargock
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Re: Questions about Torches, Oil Lamps and Dungeon-Exploration

Mon 14 Nov 2022, 12:22

General question, were lantern / lamp oil common in the olden day? what were they made of ?
From my understanding, there were two main sources of Oil: plants and animal fat. So you wouild either literally boil pieces of animal fat to separate oil from the tissue, or grind certain plants that are rich in oil (mainly seeds and stuff like olives) in a mill.

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