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Cyclic
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Re: Urban Operations Early Access Feedback

Sun 09 Oct 2022, 00:04

Typo - Ch. 5 - Urban Plots - page 46
NOTE: This plot is connected to the town of Krakow (see Appendix I on page 79), but it can be adapted for use at other locations.
Kraków is a city, not a town.
 
RobJN
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Re: Urban Operations Early Access Feedback

Sun 09 Oct 2022, 10:19

Typo -- Chapter 5 URBAN PLOTS
p. 45, second paragraph of THE LAST OFFENSIVE
The death of the 5th Division was supposedly the final offensive, but now there’s another. They’ll be another until we are, as Einstein said, “fighting with sticks and stones.”
Should be "There'll be" or (preferably) "There will be"

Further down, the second and third paragraphs are a hot mess. A repetitive hot mess, at that:
...Following the failed push by NATO during Operation: Reset, the Soviets mount a counterattack. There are still commanders out there. They assemble troops. There are still those who believe the war is somehow “winnable,” at least locally. Such is the path of madness.

An offensive takes time, and this plot is best stretched over many sessions. This, then, is the beginning. Somewhere a high-ranking commander gathers a force. It takes time to assemble. Rumors wend down the broken highways of the country. They flit in the impromptu bars in the ruined cities. Someone wants to prosecute the last battle of the war.
If this is the initial build-up, then the Soviets haven't mounted their counterattack just yet.
Repetitive text is repetitive. Also, a bit choppy. Combining sentences can smooth some of that out.
And one does not prosecute a last battle. Perpetuate? Enact? Engage in..?
The final offensive supposedly ended with the routing of the 5th Division, but now there’s another. A step closer, as Einstein said, to “fighting with sticks and stones.” Following the failed push by NATO during Operation: Reset, the Soviets [seek to] mount a counterattack. Commanders still alive in the field believe the war to be somehow “winnable,” at least locally.

An offensive takes time, though, and this plot is best stretched over many sessions. While a high-ranking commander gathers scattered Soviet forces, rumors wend down the broken highways of the country; they flit in the impromptu bars in the ruined cities: Someone wants to incite the last battle of the war.
Divisions don't necessarily die. They are broken, scattered. But since the PCs are still out-and-about, and were part of the 5th.... it's really not dead, is it?
 
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Ursus Maior
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Re: Urban Operations Early Access Feedback

Sun 09 Oct 2022, 14:29

Okay, I'd like to address a few points on Kraków with the caveat that I haven't read the rule section thoroughly so far and only skimmed over Karlsborg. I also get that the publishers try to keep the background light, probably because it's an alternate history setting where everybody has (sometimes strong) opinions about and it's hard to please a community so diverse as this one. So my thoughts are meant to add meat to the bones in order to make T2K's Kraków feel more realistically and fit into 1990s Poland better.

First of all, 1990s Poland was historically and will definitely be in T2K (I'd argue) anti-communist. In Poland, and many other post-communist countries, this meant shedding all communist institutions from the state or at least renaming them. This makes it very unlikely any such institutions would be around in 2000, and ORMO - the name of Kraków's people's militia in T2K - is such an institution that was despised heavily. ORMO stands for "Ochotnicza Rezerwa Milicji Obywatelskiej" and means Volunteer Reserve of the Citizens' Militia. In other words, it's not a regular police force, but a volunteer militia. It was also used to beat down protestors, such as strikes. ORMO failed as an institution during the 80s and was dissolved in 1989. So, ORMO was out of the picture, even before communism was gone or the USSR had collapsed.

This makes it very unlikely that a Krakovian militia would be named ORMO, unless Kraków is firmly in the hands of neo-communists, which it isn't in T2K. Since Kraków is a free city with traditions to Polish independence and national pride (to say the least), it's much more likely that any (semi-)volunteer defense organization active there would have ties to another institution originating in communist Poland, the Territorial Defense Forces (Obrona Terytorium Kraju; OTK).

OTK was originally an internal security army and separate from the army. Founded in 1965, OTK included Internal Defense Forces (Wojska Obrony Wewnętrznej; WOW), being the largest part, and smaller territorial defense battalions. OTK was also responsible for transporting Soviet forces and supplies through Poland during wartime. While the organization was reorganized after the fall of communism and became somewhat obscure in real history, being disbanded in 2008, a successor organiziation was formed in 2017. The new Territorial Defence Force (Wojska Obrony Terytorialnej; WOT) is something that T2K's OTK could have developed into, given the persistent Soviet threat looming over Poland in the alternate 1990s.

OTK would then have remained or again have become a volunteer force of territorial defense units, probably heavily intertwined with semi-official stay-behind-units like the historical Home Army (Armia Krajowa; AK) of World War Two. These territorial defense forces are common in Northern and Eastern European countries and were only disbanded in post-Cold War Europe because of the peace dividend.

The difference between OTK and ORMO is that ORMO was despised, OTK was not. Also, OTK actually existed during the 1990s, while ORMO was disbanded before the final days of communism.

A second point is the way Kraków used to work in the 1990s. Kraków is home to two major football clubs, MKS Cracovia and Wisła Kraków. Both were and are inimical to each other, but during the 1990s they also had bloody street battles, were heavily politicized, with Wisła leaning towards the political nationalist-right with strong notions of antisemitism while Cracovia is leaning more into the left, also having ties to Jewish clubs historically. Also, Wisła fans with their nation pride also were not only strongly anti-communist, but often saw themselves as successors to the AK, the World War Two underground army that fought against Nazi and Soviet occupation until the 1950s.

Both clubs also had fan communities that had ties into the criminal underworld and black markets, with Wisła ultras (die-hard fans) being called Wisła Sharks and controlling the criminal underworld of Kraków and Poland to a certain degree. They even took on a police SWAT unit once and didn't actually loose.

So, in my opinion, if anyone runs the black markets of Kraków and that city is truly non-aligned, it would be the Sharks and certainly not the Russian vory (called Vorovskoy Mir in UO). The Sharks with their nationalist political mindset would also have ties into the security apparatus, especially militia structures such as the OTK.

In other words: Football (soccer for some ;) ) and militias would be the back-bone of Kraków politics and security, not something called ORMO and Russian thugs. Those would have to tread very lightly in a post-invasion Poland. The country isn't actually Russiophile, not even Polish communists were.
liber & infractus
 
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Ursus Maior
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Re: Urban Operations Early Access Feedback

Sun 09 Oct 2022, 14:46

Note on scenario site The Power Plant. Poland has no nuclear power plants. A Soviet era reactor was under construction during the 1980s, Żarnowiec Nuclear Power Plant, but the project was abandoned after the 1986 Chernobyl disaster. The site was properly abandoned in 1991. There were also two research reactors constructed, Ewa (constructed in 1958 and abandoned in 1995) as well as Maria (constructed in 1974, still in use).

These historical circumstances make the scenario less useful for Poland than for Sweden.
liber & infractus
 
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silverfoxdmt73
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Re: Urban Operations Early Access Feedback

Tue 11 Oct 2022, 10:44

Page 87 - map of the Wawel Castle.

TBH, this is quite disappointing. I could get better from a tourist map and it doesn't really show anything that isn't already there today. Where are the defences and the checkpoints? Where are the additional makeshift troop quarters that you would need for the garrison (the Wawel doesn't have enough rooms to quarter them all and the officers would nab the best ones anyway)? The map also cuts off the ramped access from the street to the east (top right on the plan), which is actually the main access to the castle.

Sadly, I have to agree with this. The two maps of the cities and the specific sites within are a little light on detail for me also. The castle map especially looks like it has just been cut off at a point that could have been far more useful for players - with players either infiltrating the castle entrance, or fighting their way in. Also The Church cuts off part way through an adjoining building that could be an important route into the church itself and likely the scene for infiltration or combat.
 
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KastorKrieg
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Re: Urban Operations Early Access Feedback

Tue 11 Oct 2022, 17:43

Okay, I'd like to address a few points on Kraków with the caveat that I haven't read the rule section thoroughly so far and only skimmed over Karlsborg. I also get that the publishers try to keep the background light, probably because it's an alternate history setting where everybody has (sometimes strong) opinions about and it's hard to please a community so diverse as this one. So my thoughts are meant to add meat to the bones in order to make T2K's Kraków feel more realistically and fit into 1990s Poland better.

First of all, 1990s Poland was historically and will definitely be in T2K (I'd argue) anti-communist. In Poland, and many other post-communist countries, this meant shedding all communist institutions from the state or at least renaming them. This makes it very unlikely any such institutions would be around in 2000, and ORMO - the name of Kraków's people's militia in T2K - is such an institution that was despised heavily. ORMO stands for "Ochotnicza Rezerwa Milicji Obywatelskiej" and means Volunteer Reserve of the Citizens' Militia. In other words, it's not a regular police force, but a volunteer militia. It was also used to beat down protestors, such as strikes. ORMO failed as an institution during the 80s and was dissolved in 1989. So, ORMO was out of the picture, even before communism was gone or the USSR had collapsed.

This makes it very unlikely that a Krakovian militia would be named ORMO, unless Kraków is firmly in the hands of neo-communists, which it isn't in T2K. Since Kraków is a free city with traditions to Polish independence and national pride (to say the least), it's much more likely that any (semi-)volunteer defense organization active there would have ties to another institution originating in communist Poland, the Territorial Defense Forces (Obrona Terytorium Kraju; OTK).

OTK was originally an internal security army and separate from the army. Founded in 1965, OTK included Internal Defense Forces (Wojska Obrony Wewnętrznej; WOW), being the largest part, and smaller territorial defense battalions. OTK was also responsible for transporting Soviet forces and supplies through Poland during wartime. While the organization was reorganized after the fall of communism and became somewhat obscure in real history, being disbanded in 2008, a successor organiziation was formed in 2017. The new Territorial Defence Force (Wojska Obrony Terytorialnej; WOT) is something that T2K's OTK could have developed into, given the persistent Soviet threat looming over Poland in the alternate 1990s.

OTK would then have remained or again have become a volunteer force of territorial defense units, probably heavily intertwined with semi-official stay-behind-units like the historical Home Army (Armia Krajowa; AK) of World War Two. These territorial defense forces are common in Northern and Eastern European countries and were only disbanded in post-Cold War Europe because of the peace dividend.

The difference between OTK and ORMO is that ORMO was despised, OTK was not. Also, OTK actually existed during the 1990s, while ORMO was disbanded before the final days of communism.

A second point is the way Kraków used to work in the 1990s. Kraków is home to two major football clubs, MKS Cracovia and Wisła Kraków. Both were and are inimical to each other, but during the 1990s they also had bloody street battles, were heavily politicized, with Wisła leaning towards the political nationalist-right with strong notions of antisemitism while Cracovia is leaning more into the left, also having ties to Jewish clubs historically. Also, Wisła fans with their nation pride also were not only strongly anti-communist, but often saw themselves as successors to the AK, the World War Two underground army that fought against Nazi and Soviet occupation until the 1950s.

Both clubs also had fan communities that had ties into the criminal underworld and black markets, with Wisła ultras (die-hard fans) being called Wisła Sharks and controlling the criminal underworld of Kraków and Poland to a certain degree. They even took on a police SWAT unit once and didn't actually loose.

So, in my opinion, if anyone runs the black markets of Kraków and that city is truly non-aligned, it would be the Sharks and certainly not the Russian vory (called Vorovskoy Mir in UO). The Sharks with their nationalist political mindset would also have ties into the security apparatus, especially militia structures such as the OTK.

In other words: Football (soccer for some ;) ) and militias would be the back-bone of Kraków politics and security, not something called ORMO and Russian thugs. Those would have to tread very lightly in a post-invasion Poland. The country isn't actually Russiophile, not even Polish communists were.
Note on scenario site The Power Plant. Poland has no nuclear power plants. A Soviet era reactor was under construction during the 1980s, Żarnowiec Nuclear Power Plant, but the project was abandoned after the 1986 Chernobyl disaster. The site was properly abandoned in 1991. There were also two research reactors constructed, Ewa (constructed in 1958 and abandoned in 1995) as well as Maria (constructed in 1974, still in use).

These historical circumstances make the scenario less useful for Poland than for Sweden.
All of those are very much on point.
 
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Ursus Maior
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Re: Urban Operations Early Access Feedback

Tue 11 Oct 2022, 18:58

All of those are very much on point.
I appreciate the feedback, thanks. Maybe I should write a small supplement for the community content program on DTRPG.
liber & infractus
 
CWGamer
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Re: Urban Operations Early Access Feedback

Wed 12 Oct 2022, 11:56

The Pdf bookmarks mentions new Specialities of Authority, Close Quarters Specialist, Cryptographer, Liar and Thief but these are not in the Index page page 2 and 3 or in the text.
 
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silverfoxdmt73
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Re: Urban Operations Early Access Feedback

Wed 12 Oct 2022, 13:22

The Pdf bookmarks mentions new Specialities of Authority, Close Quarters Specialist, Cryptographer, Liar and Thief but these are not in the Index page page 2 and 3 or in the text.

Page 13 in the box text under NEW SPECIALITIES.
 
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FatherJ_ct
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Re: Urban Operations Early Access Feedback

Fri 14 Oct 2022, 21:28

I stopped by to post about typos I saw, but I see here in forums quite a few were already commented/addressed.

Will the PDF available on drivethru rpg (for the pre-order folks like myself) be updated soon to reflect those typo corrections? I just looked and the drivethru site still shows last updated Oct 6 with the file itself named T2K_Urban_Operations_Book_220928.pdf (I assume the name would change with the new date of the corrections).

Thanks and regards
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