Fria Ligans forum

I'm trying to figure out travel speeds of military units, e.g. 5th Infantry Division before attack on Lods. Following the rules:
- On foot:
--- Onroad: safely probably 4 hexes per day (2 shifts). Forced march enables some more, but e.g. travelling at night might not be a good idea.
--- Offroad: 2 hexes per day without forcing
- Moving on vehicles, heavy trucks being the slowest transport method (speed 6/1)
--- Onroad: 12 hexes per day (2 shifts)
--- Offroad: 2 hexes per day (2 shifts)

Now these would be the numbers for a small group or a single vehicle. How much slower is it to move as a division with up to thousands of soldiers and hundreds of vehicles?

By the way, I'm assuming all Operation Reset attack divisions etc. moved on vehicles. This is not explicitly stated but the handout refers to moving ~15 hexes in 48 hours.

Keep in mind that when the war advanced into "Reset" phase and the Battle of Kalisz even the mechanized divisions were low on vehicles and most had been converted to run on methanol. From "Death of a Division":

You were a raggedy-ass division - half of you on horseback or foot. Vehicles running off distilled alcohol

So that matters more than the actual "travel" speeds of the units. The war is simply at the stage that rapid military maneuvering of units is not possible except probably in rare cases where the unit actually has enough functioning vehicles with fuel for all the personnel to ride in.

I'd base the movements simply on story requirements. Then again if you want to play a bit of a strategy mini game on the map and have players react to troop movements I'd use something along the numbers you wrote, maybe a bit less due to large numbers of troops moving and then use the vehicular movement rates in extremely rare situations. If a unit is able to utilize vehicles for all the personnel and has the fuel to spare it should be a rare and formidable foe and something that should stand out in the eyes of the players.

To me it makes sense that Operation Reset units are moving mainly on foot. GIven how specific the lore is about military stuff, they have surely thought of this. It is somewhat confusing that 5th's orders are to march 48 hrs without sleep just before battle, or that 2nd has ended up behind enemy lines after traveling for over 30 hexes (in a week, including battles).

Ok. Assuming that a major part of a unit of at least hundreds of men is on foot, would using the same rules for movement as for a group of PCs be "close enough", or is it considerably slower? Real life experiences appreciated.

I tried to work out some of the mapping on this. Here's what we know for sure:

• 0200 April 10th, 2000 - The US 5th moves out toward Lodz following the 12, and then switching to the 8 Highway. Intending to take up positions east of Lodz by April 15th.
• Sometime within the next 7 days - The US 5th moves to Sieradz without much trouble. That's a journey of roughly 160km. The unit then moves to attack Lodz, where they encounter stiff resistance and are forced to pull back, presumably first back to Sieradz (64km both ways), and then back to Kalisz (another 48km). That's already 272km in that week.
• 2230 April 17th, 2000 - US 5th HQ is now in Kalisz, after a 12 hour fighting retreat from Lodz.
• April 18th, 2000 - US 5th Division is now in Zloczew, which is another 51km from Kalisz as the crow flies.

So in 8 days, the unit has traveled no less than 272km, with some elements travelling 323km, and an average of about 40km per day (25 miles a day for us silly Americans). That seems fairly reasonable for a brigade-sized force, even if it's mostly only foot-mobile.

Actually, foot mobile units would not march 40 km per day, except for especially trained and fit smal units. Larger formations, basically anything above platoon size, would be hard pressed to make 30 km with the train probably only making 25 km per day or so. Historical examples deemed exemplary of the last 150 years or so are as follows:

• During the Franco-Prussian War in 1871 General von Manstein's IXth Army Corps races almost 83 km in 36 hours. The corps then participates in the Battle of Orlean successfully.
• During the Great war in 1914 the VIIth Reserve Corps commanded by General Johann von Zwehl marches 64 km in 24 hours with one quarter of the infantry becoming unfit for duty and combat as a result.

These were both singular events with no longer marches on the following day. Traditionally, marched distances per day would be 22.5 km under optimum and peacetime conditions. Forced marches would be 50 km in one day for infantry (80 km for cavalry) and 70 km in two days (100 km respectively for cavalry). Infantry would then slow down to 35 km on the third day, without loosing combat capabilities on day four, but with severely reduced marching capabilities. But these numbers were for smaller detachments of combat troops, not train units, artillery or any other units burdened with heavy equipment. Larger units were calculated with 30 km per day and one day rest ever third or fourth day. This is under optimum conditions, meaning no longer breaks for distilleries running. Note that especially horses absolutely need their days off, in order to graze and rest properly.

Thanks Heffe for your findings and Ursus Major for your real life estimates.

It seems that units move too fast in the official story. Especially the 2nd Armored Division. It has travelled about 450 kilometers on its way to Lublin. Based on Ursus Marjo's estimates this should take well over 2 weeks, i.e., they would have started moving over a week before the 5th.

The question is whether to change the dates a little in my campaign or just live with it (and have the units move slower now).

Agreed - thanks Ursus as always for the excellent breakdown.

If the units are moving too quickly to be foot mobile, I think the obvious answer there is that they're not foot mobile. The 5th is only listed as having 19 combat vehicles, but the verbiage above seems to indicate that those "combat vehicles" are only including tanks/apcs/ifvs. I see no reason there couldn't be some number of unarmored trucks, pickups, or school busses driving the 5th forward toward Lodz. Same with the 2nd AD. Or you could extend the timeline of Operation Reset as you suggest.

Agreed - thanks Ursus as always for the excellent breakdown.

If the units are moving too quickly to be foot mobile, I think the obvious answer there is that they're not foot mobile. The 5th is only listed as having 19 combat vehicles, but the verbiage above seems to indicate that those "combat vehicles" are only including tanks/apcs/ifvs. I see no reason there couldn't be some number of unarmored trucks, pickups, or school busses driving the 5th forward toward Lodz. Same with the 2nd AD. Or you could extend the timeline of Operation Reset as you suggest.

Happy to help, as always.

I think we can assume that units are rarely foot mobile as a large force. Personally, I would expect units to use horse or mule drawn carts, commandeered civilian vehicles and military trucks to move most assets, including combat units. If this is at least true to a certain degree, maybe one third of the combat units, then a substantial fighting power can be transported in a "rested" state. It also opens up the possibility for transport units to shuttle hither and forth parts of a combat command, such as a division, within one day. Lastly, within a large train, such as formed by a division, one might force march one third for one day, transport by cart one third and have one third rest and/or fire up distilleries and care for other technical stuff or forage for food.

The latter method lets you leap-frog your own units in the front with the units in the back, moving the units in the center at a normal pace that won't fatigue them. If a unit in the back leap-frogs 50 km in one day by using motorized transports and forced marches, it can use horse-drawn carts for regular speed the next day, making 25 km while also resting. After two days, the unit would be in the vanguard of the division and makes camp, foraging food and distilling fuel, some of which it will give to the next unit passing them. This way only a part of the force will ever force march - and thus wear itself out more than usual - while the rest of the division would be traveling at a regular pace or resting, keeping the fighting strength near an optimum.

Still, leap-frogging is best avoided in territory where enemy encounters are likely, unless good flank protection can be guaranteed. A unit using forced march will not be able to guard it's own flanks, unless motorized assets are available as scouts and light cavalry elements.

I would say 25km as a general rule for a shift...with minuses for terrain/weather, pushing could be done with its implications for failure/mishaps/extra breakdowns.

With the previous posts and other onkine resources...plus...
https://www.ruckformiles.com/guides/arm ... standards/
Shows u.s. army aims/trains for 19kilometers in 3 hours. And link has details of their individual load.

Baggage trains will tend to be slower and bogg down easier (cattle/mules etc).

Pure horse cavalry would move a bit further. Say 45km

https://www.deephollowranch.com/how-far ... -in-a-day/
"Horse Speed
Gait Average speed
Walk 4.3 mph (6.9 km/h)
Trot 8 to 12 mph (12.9 – 19.3 km/h)
Canter 10 to 17 mph (16 – 27.3 km/h)
Gallop 25 to 30 mph (40.2 – 48.3 km/h)"

"Most average horses can travel at the pace of a gallop only 2 miles (3 km) without fatigue and about 20 miles (32 km) at the pace of a trot. You can ride your horse 25 and 35 miles (40 – 56.5 km) without rest when it walks steady.

An average trail horse in decent shape can withstand a journey of 50 miles (80.5 km) in one day, while a fit endurance competitor will be able to travel even 100 miles (161 km) in a day. On the other hand, most of them can’t endure a few consecutive days of riding without a day or two of rest."

You could have units stretching out too. Where the vehicles go as fast as they can leaving cav and foot and baggage to catch up when they can.

Most units wouldnt do this unless emergency and perhaps known area..or known/familiar route or local guides/scouts.

Concerns...recon and skirmisher elements out ahead and around main body.

Plus going through ruins and battle scarred nuked mined maraurder landscape...

Safe to say we are back to the "easy" slow rate of basic foot travel distance.