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One thing they could tweak for the F44AA instead of adding rules for it is lower the damage to 1 and give it the smart-link function from the smartgun (and maybe ammo level 5 to represent the 450 round magazine). In universe it fires 5mm rounds instead of the pulse rifle's 10mm, so a lower damage seems appropriate. It would then have a gameplay niche; it's highly accurate, armor piercing, but doesn't quite pack the same punch as the M41A.

We are reviewing armor levels now, to give some more variety.

We didn't make this change because many people were asking for it, but because we felt androids were slightly overpowered. However, based on the feedback, we might roll that change back.

I am so happy to hear your looking at armor numbers!

As for Androids, with the current changes they don't feel different enough from humans with the decrease and I feel like the biggest complaint that I've seen out there is that they could have "endless ammo" with the old rules. With the changes made this is not a factor in the new rules. So I don't think Androids need any changes. Expanded on yes but not changed/weakened. Just my 2 cents, regardless I thank you greatly for taking the time to think about rolling it back.

I did my more detailed comments on Armour in the original feedback thread prior to discussion being moved here. I wont rehash all that except saying again that I think bumping Armour to 3 for Soldiers and Sentries and to 4 for Praetorians, Queens and Chargers would be a pretty cool distinguisher between the stages. A pulse rifle would still damage a soldier due to its Armour Piercing as per the movies; and a pistol would normally bounce off a soldier now as we see when Gorman is shooting at one in the vents. Though could still damage one by using Weak Spot which would be pretty thematic during play as players realise they need to switch up their tactics or weaponry for the soldiers. It would also make a nice distinguisher between editions making Evolved feel a little more tactical and exciting. Soldiers are harder to damage in current edition, but it's 2 dice difference. You don't feel it. Bumping Soldier to 3 would still only be a 1 point damage reduction difference but you'd be more aware you were facing a tougher class of enemy because there's the weapon / breach cut off would be on your mind. Even though you probably have a pulse rifle if you're facing a nest with soldiers.

Ah - I'm rehashing when I said I wouldn't! What I meant to post is to do with the APC. I think the idea is that in response to it being too easy to damage it with small-arms, it's been taken to the point where this is impossible. Even for pulse rifles! It has Armour 5. I get that they're tough but a xenomorph punched through the window in the movie and alien acid probably ought to be able to damage it if it can eat through three decks of a ship. The Charger / Crusher in the book can damage it though which is neat. The fact that its charge attack is Armour Piercing and has base damage of 4 gives it just enough. These things can grow to being 3m at the shoulder and looking at the art are therefore probably about 9m long. They're approximately the size of the APC. Could possibly even overturn one! So I'm glad it can damage one, although it would take some time to wreck it. Setting the Armour at 4 would mean that pistol rounds still bounced off, pulse rifle can hurt it with Weak Spot. I'd be tempted to put it at 3 so that a non-charger xenomorph could damage it given time, but I think 4 is better than 5.

That's my reasoning anyway. I think I'll shut up from this point on and wait to see what the next set of changes bring. Looking forward to seeing it!

In addition to stress and panic, we are reviewing armor levels and are taking another look at damage and crits as well. We hope to share a new BETA PDF very soon.

Thank you Tomas for being so open about the rules and the game design, and staying true to your game philosophy while listening to the community to grab what you need. So far, Free League has been one of the best RPG companies around, if not the best, releasing gem after gem. The BETA rules you are reviewing for improvements will make the Evolved Edition really great because, apart from these few points that needed tweakings (and I agree with others, stronger synthetics like in the 1st ed), everything else is cool. Just to add good vibes, in the end we like your games, and a BETA is what it is: a draft that will evolve in the final version—with no better name than EVOLVED EDITION

I definitely agree the new injury system has missed the mark to some level, at least on a read-through. It just doesn't feel...harsh enough, I guess?

I'm sort of okay with "you don't find out what lasting injury you have, if any, until someone checks on you" because that can always be explained by adrenaline and the limitations of medical care (i.e,, it's about what the medic couldn't staple back together) more than explaining the initial injury in its entirety. That conceptual shift is, in principle, fine.

But on the other hand, if a xenomorph can't rip your arms off, are we even space horror-ing?

Personally I think I'd be happier to see a hybrid of the new and old somehow; maybe the critical injury table removes the instant deaths - which is now handled by going negative base Health - but restores the various maiming/lethal injury outcomes. Maybe only some of the injuries put you in an incapacitated state, others require a stamina roll to avoid it, and it'd be possible to get lucky and accrue injuries that don't knock you down.

Like at present it seems impossible to outright get knocked unconscious - you can still quick action while incapacitated - and that doesn't feel...right...for a game about death set in Hell, you know?

I really want to stress this post from this lad/lass. I feel like the critical injury table are missing some really key injuries such as severed limbs and broken spine which we had in the previous version. I also agree it feels a bit harder to get critically injured, especially one that is life altering/permanent since the only way for it to do so is through an allying "messing up" on the stress response table. Additionally, I am confused on why some of the later ones on the table such as cracked skull and internal bleeding don't have a countdown timer for treatment until it becomes fatal since those kinds of injuries need to be dealt with quickly. A small side question regarding the phrasing of how serious injuries occur: do they only get rolled for once the PC is stabilized and after a combat or dangerous situation is over? Or is it rolled right when the PC is incapacitated?

Finally, I mentioned this in a post on the other thread but I do feel like the ability to do any fast action while incapacitated is a bit odd since that includes things such as reloading, dodging, and defending among other things. It feels very powerful for a PC that is likely on the edge of being shot to death or disemboweled by a Xenomorph.

Regardless, I would also want to take the time to thank Tomas and the entire Free League team for listening to the feedback and taking the time to look through it. I understand a lot of work, effort, love, and soul went into this project with the goal of making everyone happy and I do want to say that as a massive fan of this franchise, I would trust no one more than this company with it. Thank you again for all the hard work you have put forth and listening to the feedback. I cannot speak for anyone other than myself but I imagine we all share the mindset of having the most authentic and well polished TTRPG set in the amazing and viscerally brutal Alien Universe.

We got a pretty good explanation of the new Stress and Panic, and a pretty quick fix.
Is there any chance of getting an explanation for some of the other decisions which seem counter to what many people wanted with this edition?

Hi!
First, on a general note, we never make design desicions based only on "what people want". We listen to the community yes, and if we get suggestions we think will make the game better, we'll consider them for sure, but in the end we always make design decisions based on what we think will lead to the best possible game. We make games that we would like to play ourselves – that's a design philosophy that has worked pretty well for us so far.

Why is armor a blanket 1 for most everything now?

We are reviewing armor levels now, to give some more variety.

Why are androids terrible at the stuff they should be good at now? (Did people really ask for android changes?)

We didn't make this change because many people were asking for it, but because we felt androids were slightly overpowered. However, based on the feedback, we might roll that change back.

Were the rules dumbed down to better align with a skirmish game?

No. The game has not been "dumbed down" at all. Quite the opposite – we're adding life paths, solo play, more combat options (like weak spots), etc.

How are changes to most of the game mechanics considered "backwards compatible"?

As we have stated many times – it's fully possible to play old expansions with the new rules, and vice versa, with very minor tweaks. To me, that's the definition of backwards compatible.

Not trying to be abrasive, so sorry if this post comes off that way. I think an explanation would go a long way, though, instead of just "look, this is what people wanted." I'm personally still wishing I had not spent the money on this new edition, though I do appreciate you taking a look at the concerns over Stress and Panic.
I do love the 1st edition rules, and I know that I can still use them (and probably will), but that's not super comforting when we still spent money on a new edition that we won't be using (speaking for those of use unhappy with the drastic changes, not speaking for everyone.)

In addition to stress and panic, we are reviewing armor levels and are taking another look at damage and crits as well. We hope to share a new BETA PDF very soon.
Of course, if you still want to refund your pledge for the Evolved Edition, that's completely possible. Just get in touch with our support team and we'll help you out.

Thank you. This a significant improvement and Im very glad you are listening to feedback. I know you may be worried about Androids being too powerful, but I think their main drawback is something you can't put into the rules. The androids could in theory be the best at any given thing. But nobody will ever trust them at it. They could be the best medic and nobody wants an android to touch them. The best shooter and never being trusted with a gun. This makes the android rules so clever. So interesting. It pushes deep roleplay. This game is so good at encouraging deep roleplay. I understand your concern. But I think that roleplay balances it out most of the time. This game is one of the best for roleplay. I hope Evolved continues that. The replies have given me much more confidence than I had before.

Hi!
First, on a general note, we never make design desicions based only on "what people want". We listen to the community yes, and if we get suggestions we think will make the game better, we'll consider them for sure, but in the end we always make design decisions based on what we think will lead to the best possible game. We make games that we would like to play ourselves – that's a design philosophy that has worked pretty well for us so far.

 
My deepest thanks for listening to feedback at this stage. You truly are a remarkable company. Being true to your design philosophy is what drew us to you in the first place.
 

We are reviewing armor levels now, to give some more variety.

 
IMO, Armor levels are mostly ok. Maybe a bit underpowered for big Xenos, which could also use a little extra health.
For humans, adding gadgets like a combat shield (+1 armor), or a couple of armored suits (armor 2) could be enough. Maybe the 'berserk' exosqueleton could be armor 3.
A little tweak to the 'Weak Spot' rule, like making it a quick action instead of free and/or restricting its range to adjacent-short should suffice too.
If you add much more granularity, all damage and health values for humans and xenos should be revised as well, which could compromise backwards compatibility.
 

We didn't make this change because many people were asking for it, but because we felt androids were slightly overpowered. However, based on the feedback, we might roll that change back.

 
I'm indifferent on Androids' change. The evolved edition androids are a bit more similar to the lore, since androids tend to do strange things that often lead humans to question its nature (Low empathy), and at the same time they tend to be strong and clever. However, I understand those who want more freedom in creating Androids for especific tasks. Maybe the answer lies in a compromise between the two editions. For example: Instead of giving extra points to distribute freely, just say androids can increase 2 of their attributes by specific fixed numbers... +3 if Strenght or Wits, +2 if Agility or Empathy... Or maybe giving fixed configurations for combat, social, or tech synths, etc etc... After all, they were designed by someone else, not born with freedom to choose.

Synthetics are weaker in the RPG than they are in the films. Their biggest problem was the infinite ammo that's fixed now. Other than that, they are severely weaker. They don't heal at all, they take so long to repair (which is lore accurate) and they can't push which is huge. A human who pushes can double the number of their dice, whereas the synthetic is stuck with their lower dice number results.
This is a bigger change, so I know there's no way it would be implemented, but IMO the synthetics are so emotional and complex in the alien universe that they should be able to use the same mechanics of stress. Call it Software or Mechanical Stress. A facehugger on the stress dice makes them suffer some type of damage, similar to how it's done in Twilight 2000. Or you can go with a special Stress/Panic Chart for synthetics. The lower ones can be the same as the ones for humans and the higher results could be custom to synthetics. Making them be careful to not get too much stress and reveal their hidden synthetic nature if that's the case for that adventure.
My naive wishes aside, synthetics not being allowed by law and programming to carry weapons and hurt humans is more than enough of a nerf that would warrant them having a lot higher base stats. Which, again, was evident in the films.


Now, I understand Tomas and the team are hard at work with reviewing and potentially tweaking some of the rules for which we are all grateful for and my late feedback here will probably not be necessary, but just in case, here are some things I've been thinking about:

I agree that armor might need some additional tweaks to their values to give variety to them. As said, maybe up the military grade armor, then the weapon damage accordingly, and the Alien armor as well to match the shift. Or give some of the other armor more minuses to mobility or whatever. A clarification on the acid resistance of the APE suits would be nice.

If the pistol and melee weapons damage isn't going to be lowered, then if armor is theoretically upped and so is damage to some guns, I recommend that be done to everything from Rifle and higher in deadliness. Making more of a difference between rifle and pistol damage is needed to me at least. I know that the new Full Auto will really help rifles, but just a one damage category difference would be fine.

If a knife is damage 2, then most of the Alien attacks should be like that as well. Are we really saying that the Alien's strength and claws are weaker than a knife? Especially since a lot of the scale and damage creep is present in later instalments where Deacons and Archdeacons somehow have damage 2 claw attacks. So I think it's only fair that the Alien attacks have that much as well.
If the axe is armor piercing, then so is every Alien tail attack. An axe is kinda armor piercing, to medieval armor. But nowhere near the scale of armor piercing the bullets described in Aliens. Heck, nowhere near the AP of today's bullets either. So IMO the AP of the axe should either be removed or AP should be like in Twilight 2000, more nuanced, where some AP is -1 to armor, and stronger AP is -2 to armor etc.
I do love that acid destroys armor quickly now, lovely! Just like it was in the films!

Regarding the new injury system. I want to preface this with that I fully understand the intent. Longer lasting PCs plus no more strange results when downed. I get it could be strange in the first edition when you melee someone with your fists, break them and they somehow have their arm severed from your killer punch. Though most results were clearly applicable to a wide number of situations. That could've been easily fixed with a blurb like FL does in other game: some results may need added interpretation or just reroll the ones that make no sense.
I get that the new Incapacitation system is a generic abstraction of a dangerous wound that you're bleeding out from. And the Serious Injuries are more like secondary injuries that you only notice when you get up, that's why they're more forgiving and subtle. Though I don't know how anyone wouldn't notice a torn off ear or disfigured face right away... I get the point of it all, but I think the changes could've been less drastic. Replacing being Broken and immediately finding out what type of injury you have was much better for the roleplay than an abstract Incapacitation. And the Serious Injuries aren't even likely cause of the extra stamina roll to see if you even have any.
There is a compromise how to have the best of both versions: Keep the Last Stand and the ability to do fast actions from Evolved Edition while Broken from First Edition. After being Broken, immediately roll on the Critical Injury chart from First Edition, but it could be changed up a little. Either simply with having a blurb say (my preferred method): In Campaign Play the GM is allowed to reroll the insta death critical injuries, heck maybe even all injuries if they're too harsh, or alternatively, the insta death ones could just be replaced with other ones (lethal in d6 rounds or whatever), and maybe the spinal snap one and the severed limb (and leaving that for the creature's specific attacks).
If we're still worried about the strange injuries, I always did love what FL did with Blade Runner. Have blunt/crushing crits and slash/piercing crits. Two different tables for appropriate circumstances. Though doing all that for this edition might be out of question, which I can totally see.

I do like the fact that if you mess up the stabilization of the wound, that it could be permanent! It's still too forgiving IMO, the exact rules for it in The Walking Dead are my preferred ones, but even a version of it here is nice.

If the worry was how to balance the lethality of the Headbite compared to everything else? Then there is also a simple solution there as well. It's already there with the Drone's Headbite. Instead of it not being fatal as an option (which is absolutely brilliant) for eggmorphing, it could be there for just normal retrieval back to the hive. So that Warriors and Sentries can use it too. A very similar description of it is in Building Better Worlds, page 268, Xenomorph Capture Attacks, Stun the Host attack. It doesn't have to be a scenario specific attack, since the creatures do it all the time in the films, like in Aliens, the deleted scene with Burke means that he was only knocked out by that Headbite by the Warrior, and probably Newt as well since she was unconscious until she woke up in the hive after being abducted. So having that be present in the Core Rule Book for GMs to immediately know and use for campaigns might be useful.

I love super lethal systems, but these are maybe some compromises that are possible for people who think otherwise?

Also, even though I'm really not happy with the change in most of the key terms in the game, I will praise the change from block to defend. Cause it was always hilarious that you could even attempt to try that against something as huge as a Stage VI XenomorphXX121. But with defend, how it's worded, it sounds more like a close range outmaneuver type of thing that seems more plausible to me at least.

Again, thanks to Tomas and Free League for all the work they put in.

I'm gonna start with this: The Evolved rules are by and large great improvements to an already very good system. I think my biggest overall commentary is that the game seems strongly calibrated toward "cinematic" adventures, but leaves some enduring issues with campaign play.

One relatively simple thing that could be fixed is to align the cost of increasingly better gear with their relative utility. Right off the bat, you can see that marine armor is double the cost of kevlar armor, with no stat change (you get a radio and tracker chip?). Meanwhile common space suits cost $15k, while armored space suits that make some tradeoffs in exchange for a LOT more protection are only $2k? This does not seem to make sense in the only place a purchase cost seems to matter: in a campaign setting where you want to acquire progressively better gear as your character gets stronger and threats escalate.

On panic, I long ago house ruled my own chart, mostly limiting the spiraling +1 stress results in the lower outcomes (only 1 of these, at a roll of 7), and using persistent stat maluses and modified successes from 8-10, and replacing early failure states with a mechanic that reduces successes by the number of facehuggers (1's vs. 6's as some others have said), so that only very high stress levels completely remove a player's agency by forcing them to take actions like cowering or running. This again is a response to campaign play. Losing control of a character, possibly resulting in their untimely demise, may heighten the sense of peril and action in a one-shot or cinematic, but it is very different losing control of a character you've played and crafted over 10-20 sessions. This led to more than a few feel-bad moments that begged to be relitigated at the table. While the new mechanics seems to mitigate some of the aspects of losing total control, the stress spiral is potentially even worse than before, resulting in a character that may be in your power but lacks competency to do anything useful without stressing and screwing it up.

For the love of god, just make marine combat armor, xeno drone armor, and equivalents, level 2 already. Force people to use the weakpoint mechanics if they want to kill it using shotguns, pistols, and pipe wrenches .

For the record, I LOVE the move toward standardized stunts, using actions instead of stunts to accomplish basic tactical actions like disarms, and using the supply roll mechanic for ammo. I also love the vastly clarified stealth mode mechanics. They do seem to reduce the role of stealthy actions (i.e. mobility rolls) but I'm not sure that's the worst thing in the world.

Well, those are my 2 to 4 cents for now! Any gripes aside, I love the game, system and setting, and it is only getting better!

Sincerely,
Tony

I dig most of the new changes since the revised Beta rules. The only two things missing for me now are gruesome permanent injuries and an example of play for solo mode (I cannot figure out how that works)

My players (who are Horror fans) absolutely loved getting limbs ripped off their characters randomly- but I can see that this is not generally a positive thing in a role playing game, especially if you are going for a campaign rather than a cinematic. Rather than adding permanent injuries (limb removal etc) to the default critical table as we had it in 1st ed, I was thinking a mechanic where a character gets a gruesome disabling injury rather than being outright killed would be appropriate. It is still horrible, means the other characters have to drag their ass around now, but gives an option (? a choice) for character to survive at cost so actually boosts character survivability while still allowing for disabled/maimed play.

Just a thought.