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Vader
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Re: The Swedish setting

Wed 26 Aug 2020, 18:34

Moderator Message: Good, please stay away from discussing piracy. Do that somewhere else.
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Indeed — or preferably not at all, to my mind.

But there should be legal ways to get hold of it; I'd like to have it on DVD, if it were available.
The UK MOD released loads of instruction videos from the RN, RAF, etc ages ago; I'd hope Försvarsmakten did something similar. The book club Svenskt Militärhistoriskt Bibliotek has (or had ... I quit them a while ago) a film club, that released some interesting titles, but never seemed to get around to Förebudet. Possibly because of the reverted rights ... need to look into that.

But Förebudet is a great keyhole to peek into the late Cold War mindset in Sweden. Getting an official re-release would be a great thing for the context of this setting.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: The Swedish setting

Wed 26 Aug 2020, 18:46

Moderator Message: Good, please stay away from discussing piracy. Do that somewhere else.
.
Indeed — or preferably not at all, to my mind.

But there should be legal ways to get hold of it; I'd like to have it on DVD, if it were available.
The UK MOD released loads of instruction videos from the RN, RAF, etc ages ago; I'd hope Försvarsmakten did something similar. The book club Svenskt Militärhistoriskt Bibliotek has (or had ... I quit them a while ago) a film club, that released some interesting titles, but never seemed to get around to Förebudet. Possibly because of the reverted rights ... need to look into that.

But Förebudet is a great keyhole to peek into the late Cold War mindset in Sweden. Getting an official re-release would be a great thing for the context of this setting.
First, yes I can agree that people shouldn't discuss that at all.

Then. Shouldn't more info about this at Försvarsmakten. Förebudet is there (using the sites search function for Om kriget kom) so they should know more about that if anyone dare asking them.
"Thanks for noticing' me." - Eeyore
 
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Vader
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Re: The Swedish setting

Wed 26 Aug 2020, 19:16

Shouldn't more info about this at Försvarsmakten. Förebudet is there (using the sites search function for Om kriget kom) so they should know more about that if anyone dare asking them.
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You mean the "Om kriget kom, avsnitt 1: 'Förebudet'"? That's unfortunately a much more recent production, just with the same title.

What we're referring to is a ~45 minutes long film made in 1987, by a fellow named Nils-Eric Renske.
It showed what the initial phases of an attack against Sweden might look like, with Spetznaz infiltrators exploiting the generally lax attitude towards security permeating the Swedish society then — as now — to knock out vital infrastructure and hinder mobilisation by polluting cities' water supplies with biological agents.

I suppose you could say "Den blomstertid nu kommer" takes that concept and runs away with it...
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: The Swedish setting

Wed 26 Aug 2020, 19:26

Shouldn't more info about this at Försvarsmakten. Förebudet is there (using the sites search function for Om kriget kom) so they should know more about that if anyone dare asking them.
.
You mean the "Om kriget kom, avsnitt 1: 'Förebudet'"? That's unfortunately a much more recent production, just with the same title.

What we're referring to is a ~45 minutes long film made in 1987, by a fellow named Nils-Eric Renske.
It showed what the initial phases of an attack against Sweden might look like, with Spetznaz infiltrators exploiting the generally lax attitude towards security permeating the Swedish society then — as now — to knock out vital infrastructure and hinder mobilisation by polluting cities' water supplies with biological agents.

I suppose you could say "Den blomstertid nu kommer" takes that concept and runs away with it...
Ah, then the only way to go is to contact the Nils-Eric himself.
"Thanks for noticing' me." - Eeyore
 
Oddball_E8
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Re: The Swedish setting

Wed 26 Aug 2020, 20:55

But what does this imply for, for instance, the new MBT?

To recap from the first page, Sweden IRL decided to depart from its standing defence procurement policy from the Cold War (that critical systems should not be dependant of non-domestic suppliers), and made the decision to not go forward with the development of the Strv 141 (a.k.a. "Stridsvagn 2000"), but instead to have a competition between a number of foreign manufacturers, where the Leopard 2 Improved (not A5 or A6) eventually emerged as the clear winner; the formal procurement for 120 tanks (91 to be built locally on license) being signed in 1994.
As deliveries couldn't start until 1996, the deal also included 160 surplus Bundeswehr A4's on lease as a stopgap; these were delivered the same year the contract was signed.

So, with the Cold War heating up instead of blowing over ... how does that affect this timeline?

Will Sweden again see the wisdom of the established SOP vis-à-vis procurement, and accelerate the development of Strv 141?
But in that case; the existing MBT's — Strv 103 and 104 — were hopelessly outdated, and impossible to upgrade to meet the requirements of the modern battlefield. Some other stopgap would be required ... but what would that be?
Other European countries would all of a sudden most likely not have a lot of surplus to spare, and many takers for anything they did have. Krauss-Maffei would probably be prioritising its production capacity for arming its domestic army, as would Vickers, GIAT, Chrysler, and others.
So, would Sweden even have any choice but to go forward with Strv 141, as fast as possible? (The shooting war breaking out in 1997 would certainly give them time to do so.)

Or will Sweden be able to stitch together some kind of a deal anyway, with Germany? (Or with someone else — would the competition staged IRL even have been possible in this altered scenario?)
And in that case, assuming that we wouldn't have been able to get the surplus A4, but went straight to the "Swedish Imp" (which then btw would have carried the designation "Strv 121" in service) ... we must assume that the IRL 1996-2002 delivery schedule would have been considerably accelerated...

And this is still just scratching the surface...

Any way you look at it though; with the drastically altered background conditions, it'll take more than just a few tweaks here and there from real-world history to make the setting feel solid and believable.
Like I've stated before... that test of foreign MBT's wasn't done because the Stridsvagn 2000 project was cancelled. They were done because when they had previously borrowed two tanks (Abrams and Leo 2) to compare to the Strv 2000, they had shown a flaw in the previous way of thinking about tanks. There had been a general consensus that most modern tanks were too heavy to operate in northern Sweden.
This was completely shattered by the maneuverability tests of the Abrams and Leo 2 and serious doubts were raised on whether we could even wait until after the year 2000 for a new MBT.
Tests had showed that upgrading the current tanks to a satisfactory status was unfeasable.
Trips were done in 88-89 to France, USA and Germany to gather information on the current MBT's of those countries.
Tests of the three tanks were made in 89-90 during the winter in Sweden.
The subsequent report of the evaluations came to the conclusion that either we needed to buy a new MBT immediately, or a new MBT that more fitted with current economic plans (ie. with delivery by 2000 at the earliest).

While that report was made in 1990 and included the fact that the Berlin wall had just fallen, they did point out that the assessments were made in 1989, with 1989's factors. So it's obvious that Strv 2000 project wouldn't have continued full steam even if the wall never fell.

The report noted that the first alternative could only be made by direct purchase of a foreign tank, and the Abrams and Leo 2 were considered the most viable options.

The second option was to continue with the Strv 2000 project, but it wasn't considered realistic with current economical restrictions.

Anyway, you can read more on it here; https://www.ointres.se/strv_2000.htm

Point is, I'm not so sure that Sweden would have just done a massive U-turn and thrown themselves headlong into the Strv 2000 project even if the coup had succeeded in 1991.
Mostly because it would take at least a year or two more for the government to be certain that the USSR was still a threat at that point, and by that point they would have already have made the decision... (since that decision was, in fact, taken in 1991)

So yeah... I'm certainly not sure that there would have been any immediate changes that would have lead to the Strv 2000 project being A: Finished by the time the war broke out or B: even continued in the first place.

That leaves us with two options.
Either Sweden decided to continue the Strv 2000 project (highly unlikely, since the decision to end it was taken before any larger results of the successful coup would have been known), in which case the Strv 2000 wouldn't have been completed by the time the war broke out, and Sweden would still have been stuck with their severely outdated Strv 103 and Strv 104.
OR, they did exactly what they did in real life. They went for the Leo 2 "improved", leased surplus Leo 2A4's from Germany as a stop-gap and started production of the Strv 122... in which case we still wouldn't have had any 122's since the first one was delivered after the war started in the game, but we'd have a bunch of Strv 121's to bolster our defense.
 
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Vader
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Re: The Swedish setting

Wed 26 Aug 2020, 22:47

But what does this imply for, for instance, the new MBT?

To recap from the first page, Sweden IRL decided to depart from its standing defence procurement policy from the Cold War (that critical systems should not be dependant of non-domestic suppliers), and made the decision to not go forward with the development of the Strv 141 (a.k.a. "Stridsvagn 2000"), but instead to have a competition between a number of foreign manufacturers, where the Leopard 2 Improved (not A5 or A6) eventually emerged as the clear winner; the formal procurement for 120 tanks (91 to be built locally on license) being signed in 1994.
As deliveries couldn't start until 1996, the deal also included 160 surplus Bundeswehr A4's on lease as a stopgap; these were delivered the same year the contract was signed.

So, with the Cold War heating up instead of blowing over ... how does that affect this timeline?

Will Sweden again see the wisdom of the established SOP vis-à-vis procurement, and accelerate the development of Strv 141?
But in that case; the existing MBT's — Strv 103 and 104 — were hopelessly outdated, and impossible to upgrade to meet the requirements of the modern battlefield. Some other stopgap would be required ... but what would that be?
Other European countries would all of a sudden most likely not have a lot of surplus to spare, and many takers for anything they did have. Krauss-Maffei would probably be prioritising its production capacity for arming its domestic army, as would Vickers, GIAT, Chrysler, and others.
So, would Sweden even have any choice but to go forward with Strv 141, as fast as possible? (The shooting war breaking out in 1997 would certainly give them time to do so.)

Or will Sweden be able to stitch together some kind of a deal anyway, with Germany? (Or with someone else — would the competition staged IRL even have been possible in this altered scenario?)
And in that case, assuming that we wouldn't have been able to get the surplus A4, but went straight to the "Swedish Imp" (which then btw would have carried the designation "Strv 121" in service) ... we must assume that the IRL 1996-2002 delivery schedule would have been considerably accelerated...

And this is still just scratching the surface...

Any way you look at it though; with the drastically altered background conditions, it'll take more than just a few tweaks here and there from real-world history to make the setting feel solid and believable.
Like I've stated before... that test of foreign MBT's wasn't done because the Stridsvagn 2000 project was cancelled. They were done because when they had previously borrowed two tanks (Abrams and Leo 2) to compare to the Strv 2000, they had shown a flaw in the previous way of thinking about tanks. There had been a general consensus that most modern tanks were too heavy to operate in northern Sweden.
This was completely shattered by the maneuverability tests of the Abrams and Leo 2 and serious doubts were raised on whether we could even wait until after the year 2000 for a new MBT.
Tests had showed that upgrading the current tanks to a satisfactory status was unfeasable.
Trips were done in 88-89 to France, USA and Germany to gather information on the current MBT's of those countries.
Tests of the three tanks were made in 89-90 during the winter in Sweden.
The subsequent report of the evaluations came to the conclusion that either we needed to buy a new MBT immediately, or a new MBT that more fitted with current economic plans (ie. with delivery by 2000 at the earliest).

While that report was made in 1990 and included the fact that the Berlin wall had just fallen, they did point out that the assessments were made in 1989, with 1989's factors. So it's obvious that Strv 2000 project wouldn't have continued full steam even if the wall never fell.

The report noted that the first alternative could only be made by direct purchase of a foreign tank, and the Abrams and Leo 2 were considered the most viable options.

The second option was to continue with the Strv 2000 project, but it wasn't considered realistic with current economical restrictions.

Anyway, you can read more on it here; https://www.ointres.se/strv_2000.htm

Point is, I'm not so sure that Sweden would have just done a massive U-turn and thrown themselves headlong into the Strv 2000 project even if the coup had succeeded in 1991.
Mostly because it would take at least a year or two more for the government to be certain that the USSR was still a threat at that point, and by that point they would have already have made the decision... (since that decision was, in fact, taken in 1991)

So yeah... I'm certainly not sure that there would have been any immediate changes that would have lead to the Strv 2000 project being A: Finished by the time the war broke out or B: even continued in the first place.

That leaves us with two options.
Either Sweden decided to continue the Strv 2000 project (highly unlikely, since the decision to end it was taken before any larger results of the successful coup would have been known), in which case the Strv 2000 wouldn't have been completed by the time the war broke out, and Sweden would still have been stuck with their severely outdated Strv 103 and Strv 104.
OR, they did exactly what they did in real life. They went for the Leo 2 "improved", leased surplus Leo 2A4's from Germany as a stop-gap and started production of the Strv 122... in which case we still wouldn't have had any 122's since the first one was delivered after the war started in the game, but we'd have a bunch of Strv 121's to bolster our defense.
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You may have misunderstood my gist slightly. I do not disagree with the historical account, nor — everything else being equal — with your analysis. In fact, I'd say it's very astute.

My point is however that everything else is not equal. The alterations in the historical scenario create a whole lot of moving parts, and if you push something in at one point, something else might pop out somewhere quite unexpected.

With the Moscow Coup succeeding, and the politics of the situation necessary for it to be able to succeed — what is the perceived threat level in the eyes of Western European analysts and politicians? How will this cause them to prioritise? Is a foreign procurement option even on the table for Sweden — not because of what the Swedes themselves might prefer, but because of what everyone else is preoccupied with? ...it might be; but I could also envision the scenario developing in a direction where it is not, depending on what conditions are set for the scenario.

Judging from the way real history did develop it is certainly not the most likely one, granted, but a scenario where Sweden decides to "pull out all the stops" on Strv 141 and have it developed and sufficient numbers to outfit two or three brigades fielded by the time war breaks out is not completely outside the realms of possibility — again, depending on what conditions are set.

However — since we are talking about a fictional story setting after all, it also to some degree comes down to what is the most interesting; what makes the setting more fun to play around in — as Marc Miller told me, what merits artistic license. And having the Strv 141 in service by 1997 would employ, at least as far as I am concerned, by far less artistic license than having the Interdynamics MKS as Ak 5...
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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pansarskott
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Re: The Swedish setting

Thu 27 Aug 2020, 12:45

With the Soviet Union still a threat, I think we can remove the used Leo 2 A4s (Strv 121) from the discussion. No one wants to sell their tanks.

For a new MBT that leaves us licence-produced Leo 2 A5 (strv 122) or the domestic Strv 141 (Strv 2000).

But one thing to consider is that Sweden would still be outside of military alliances (on paper, at least) and had so far only domestically produced vehicles. Components and weapons might come from other countries, but I can't think of any complete vehicle in larger numbers. Would this affect the choice? from the sensible choice Leo 2 A5 to a completely new domestic design (Strv 141)?

The mechanized brigades would not get any Strv 121, but could get tanks (strv 103 and 104 with possible upgrades) from the armoured brigades when strv 122s are introduced.
 
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Vader
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Re: The Swedish setting

Thu 27 Aug 2020, 13:26

With the Soviet Union still a threat, I think we can remove the used Leo 2 A4s (Strv 121) from the discussion. No one wants to sell their tanks.

For a new MBT that leaves us licence-produced Leo 2 A5 (strv 122) or the domestic Strv 141 (Strv 2000).

But one thing to consider is that Sweden would still be outside of military alliances (on paper, at least) and had so far only domestically produced vehicles. Components and weapons might come from other countries, but I can't think of any complete vehicle in larger numbers. Would this affect the choice? from the sensible choice Leo 2 A5 to a completely new domestic design (Strv 141)?

The mechanized brigades would not get any Strv 121, but could get tanks (strv 103 and 104 with possible upgrades) from the armoured brigades when strv 122s are introduced.
.
Getting Strv 103's and 104's would of course be an improvement for the mechanised brigades over the Ikv 91, but the fact remains, there is no meaningful upgrade that could be made to those platforms to make them adequate for the modern battlefield. It was simply physically impossible.
But, yeah — in the absence of the A4, I still would reassign the old tanks to the mechanised brigades.

Do bear in mind however — if Sweden never gets the surplus A4's (agreed — likely scenario), but instead starts producing the modified Leopard 2 Improved (not A5!) on license straight off on an accelerated schedule, then the "Swedish Imp" will get the service designation Strv 121. In any scenario with a tank with a 120mm main gun, there will always be a Strv 121; if the A4 falls by the wayside, then it's the Strv 122 designation that won't be used.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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pansarskott
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Re: The Swedish setting

Thu 27 Aug 2020, 13:57

IKV 91 was primarily used by infantry brigade and Norrland brigade. One company per brigaed.

There was some proposed Centurion upgrade (strv 105) that never happened because second hand Leo 2s was a much better choice. They're still outdated, but some improvement could still be made. I checked a bit on the differences and mech brigades had tanks, but not as many tanks as armoured brigades.

Agree about numbering, but let's stick to the real world numbers (121 = old used / 122 = new improved) for the discussion. Otherwise it'll be very confusing.

Quick procurement of Leo 2 imp would probably be the best choice, but if the goal is to introduce cool vehicles into the game the "It's not invented here and we don't want to buy from a NATO country because we pretend to be neutral"-argument dictates that the new MTB will be Strv 2000 / Strv 141
 
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Vader
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Re: The Swedish setting

Thu 27 Aug 2020, 14:39

IKV 91 was primarily used by infantry brigade and Norrland brigade. One company per brigaed.

There was some proposed Centurion upgrade (strv 105) that never happened because second hand Leo 2s was a much better choice. They're still outdated, but some improvement could still be made. I checked a bit on the differences and mech brigades had tanks, but not as many tanks as armoured brigades.

Agree about numbering, but let's stick to the real world numbers (121 = old used / 122 = new improved) for the discussion. Otherwise it'll be very confusing.

Quick procurement of Leo 2 imp would probably be the best choice, but if the goal is to introduce cool vehicles into the game the "It's not invented here and we don't want to buy from a NATO country because we pretend to be neutral"-argument dictates that the new MTB will be Strv 2000 / Strv 141
.
Quite right, of course ... a momentary confusion; I remember us training Ikv 91 crews — but they were for Värmlandsbrigaden, which was infantry; not for the mechanised brigade. Duh.

"Mechanised" is really a short form for "mechanised infantry", meaning infantry that is motorised and has organic armour support. So yes, they have MBT's, but not at all as many as actual armoured troops.

About the numbering ... I'm already confused, so I'll just stick with talking about "A4's" and "Swedish Imp's", when talking about the game's alternate timeline, or when the timeline is ambiguous, and only use Strv 121/122 when talking about the IRL timeline.

As for your conclusion about the Strv 141, I'm inclined to agree, albeit perhaps for slightly different reasons. For Hägglunds and Bofors to set up production lines for the Swedish Imp and ramp up production would not take much less time than for the Strv 141; the question is the development time, and exactly where in the timeline the starting gun goes off — but for the Leopard, they'd be dependent on support and personnel from Krauss-Maffei, which may or may not be available.

As I say — moving parts.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
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