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I definitely agree the new injury system has missed the mark to some level, at least on a read-through. It just doesn't feel...harsh enough, I guess?

I'm sort of okay with "you don't find out what lasting injury you have, if any, until someone checks on you" because that can always be explained by adrenaline and the limitations of medical care (i.e,, it's about what the medic couldn't staple back together) more than explaining the initial injury in its entirety. That conceptual shift is, in principle, fine.

But on the other hand, if a xenomorph can't rip your arms off, are we even space horror-ing?

Personally I think I'd be happier to see a hybrid of the new and old somehow; maybe the critical injury table removes the instant deaths - which is now handled by going negative base Health - but restores the various maiming/lethal injury outcomes. Maybe only some of the injuries put you in an incapacitated state, others require a stamina roll to avoid it, and it'd be possible to get lucky and accrue injuries that don't knock you down.

Like at present it seems impossible to outright get knocked unconscious - you can still quick action while incapacitated - and that doesn't feel...right...for a game about death set in Hell, you know?

I definitely agree the new injury system has missed the mark to some level, at least on a read-through. It just doesn't feel...harsh enough, I guess?

I'm sort of okay with "you don't find out what lasting injury you have, if any, until someone checks on you" because that can always be explained by adrenaline and the limitations of medical care (i.e,, it's about what the medic couldn't staple back together) more than explaining the initial injury in its entirety. That conceptual shift is, in principle, fine.

But on the other hand, if a xenomorph can't rip your arms off, are we even space horror-ing?

Personally I think I'd be happier to see a hybrid of the new and old somehow; maybe the critical injury table removes the instant deaths - which is now handled by going negative base Health - but restores the various maiming/lethal injury outcomes. Maybe only some of the injuries put you in an incapacitated state, others require a stamina roll to avoid it, and it'd be possible to get lucky and accrue injuries that don't knock you down.

Like at present it seems impossible to outright get knocked unconscious - you can still quick action while incapacitated - and that doesn't feel...right...for a game about death set in Hell, you know?

FWIW, I have sort of done that at my table but differently. What I have at my table is something inspired by Critical Injuries in FFG's Star Wars line in which the table goes above the number it is possible to role (that's a percentile system so above a hundred for them) and you get a +X for every existing untreated critical injury. The more fatal and life-changing outcomes are therefore only possible after you've already been injured once or twice. Something of a best of both worlds in that you get the random and horrible results possible, but you're no longer going to get disembowelled by the drunk in the bar fight scene at the start of the adventure. Something the Beta system solves, but at the expense of, as you say, xenomorphs ripping people's arms off.

This is getting slightly off-topic but I actually have different injury tables for Cinematic and Campaign play. Something I mean to work up properly sometime.

I knew you'd come
        - Newt, LV 426

I was still collating.

Please, keep in mind that the point of this new Evolved edition is to maintain the characters more durable (I think). So I would not say that taking out the critical injury table from first edition is some kind of mistake or an error, but to keep playing with your character more time.

In some situations, I understand the decision. For example, when we rolled the "broken spine" injury we didn't know what to do, but obviously it's supposed that a character can never move again, so a player should have to create a new character even if he/she was alive... But we "roleplayed" that the character is fixed in some (rare) way and keep moving. The same goes to severed limbs, for example, where the characters got a plastic limb like in Star Wars and there were no rules about this in first edition.

So I think all those rules about serious injuries are not casual or are a mistake, it's about a true intention to make characters harder and I can understand the reasons. I would not change these rules in Evolved but to play with first edition rules.

I would change the Stress rules (although I have not tested them, so I trust the feedback explained here by other users) and I have to admit that armor rules, the intention is nice (to avoid more dice rolling), but now all armor look the same, a simple 1 level with not much use except for decreasing one damage (and if the weapon has armor piercing, none, so It becomes useless). In other situations, the armor level avoid to make damage with a pistol... For example, a pistol cannot damage a Drone xenomorph except if you look for the weak spot with a -2. I don't know, I think the armor idea is great but it's like a turn or two is needed so armor can work perfectly. But even with no changes can work...

I omit other questions like overwatch, which have disappeared from Evolved edition (I suppose consequence of the stealth rules and "keeping guard") but if it's not changed it's ok for me.

What I wanted to say all in all is that we cannot expect that all our proposals are fitted in the new book. Sometimes, I think the new edition have introduced the new rules with clearly intentions (make the characters more durable); in other cases, It would suppose to rewrite many paragraphs and even change the edition and I think we can add what we want from the first edition or remove from the Evolved edition to play accordingly to our tastes.

I do think it's a good thing to reduce the chance of sudden and random death a bit. The game still feels very deadly but you don't want a character you're invested in to die or a game to derail that easily. Matter of taste of course. I was just mentioning how I try to have my cake and eat it by adopting the approach from FFG's Star Wars games and how I split the tables for Cinematic and Campaign play as the impact of sudden random death is more significant in the latter. Just sharing.

I do think it's a good thing to reduce the chance of sudden and random death a bit. The game still feels very deadly but you don't want a character you're invested in to die or a game to derail that easily. Matter of taste of course. I was just mentioning how I try to have my cake and eat it by adopting the approach from FFG's Star Wars games and how I split the tables for Cinematic and Campaign play as the impact of sudden random death is more significant in the latter. Just sharing.

No, no... I understand perfectly what you are telling. It's difficult for me to explain correctly what I feel, so my previous message may feel offensive in some way but that's what not my intention.

What I say it's that I think the only modifications will be related to Stress. Maybe, in my case, I would change more things (for example the abscence of overwatch) but the Evolved edition it's what we are going to get, since more changes would suppose reworking all the book and I think that's not affordable. The intention of this new edition is clear and although I would personally tweak some things, I prefer to wait and check the changes by myself when I receive my copy... I admit that many rules are an improvement, other are not perfect but it's imposible to please everyone.

 
After some considerations, and seeing how cost-effective the aim for the 'Weak spot' rule is, I think it should need to consume a quick action in order to execute, being more or less the equivalent of 'aiming'. Thus, you would have 2 aiming options: Increasing your chances of hitting overall, or being more effective against armored targets. And instead of being short range or more, (like aim), it should be short range or less, making it impossible to fire at weak spots on distant targets, and to better differentiate both options.

That way, you wouldn't be able to stack 'weak spots' with 'aim' (which would effectively counter the penalty), and you'd have to choose between defending/dodging, or aiming for the weak spots. If you are already under fire/attack and trying to not get hit, it shouldn't be easy to line up careful shots... You'd have to open yourself. That already is the situation with the standard 'aim' rule, and I don't see why it shouldn't happen with aiming for 'weak spots' too.

I'l lhave to disagree with you on this one.

IMO, the two talents 'Hardened' and 'Seen it all' already cover pretty well the need to have a 'sturdier scientist' or a 'contemplative marine'. No wonder why your players love your mechanic, because it bypasses the 'scarcity of resources' in character creation (Attribute points) and allow them to "have the cake and eat it too" figuratively speaking. It eliminates all the hard choices for them. For example, they can safely dump all their points on STR/AGI, and become killing machines, and not worry about their mental stability since they will compensate with Survival, while at the same time increasing their health to stage V+ Xenomorph levels, thanks to Stamina... And throw talents on top of that.

If it works for your group, sure, keep on. That's precisely the point on house rules, adapting the core rules for the needs of each group. For my part, (and specially in a horror rpg like ALIEN) I prefer to keep my players in the mood of scarcity of resources, with clear weaknesses in their characters that convey a sense of vulnerability (either to pain or panic) and the feeling that a single mistake in the inappropiate moment could spell a swift and instant death.

Your ideas are excellent, my friend (Storm). I like the addition of survival for resolve and stamina for health. Survival is a skill we rarely use, and it would give it a bit more weight to use it more.

The formulas would be...
wits + empathy/2 + survival = resolve
strength + agility/2 + stamina = health
If I understand correctly, it's brilliant and intriguing.

P.S. But I possibly agree with Jehan Menasis, we shouldn't have super stats as strong as the xenomorph. But it's still intriguing, I like the additions of stamina + survival.

Arthur.

Thank you both for your feedback and your right, it does give the players much higher stats. If they invest time and mange to live long enough to do so. Remember, skills cost 5xp and getting 5xp RAW is a challenge in itself. For my table this works, more health = more enemies gives them that feeling they are really going up against a horde of creatures that they can just barely survive. I'm always saying in Alien games, "Death is an escape, trauma you can't escape from. What do you want?" My players always say Trauma Llama! So I tweaked thinks so they could live longer and get to experience and role play out the traumas.

Specifically @Jehan Menasis
I understand where your thoughts go on players dumping there stats into STR/AGI but my players (thankfully) are here for the RP and story. They make characters that are believable. One of them actually didn't spend any XP after awhile and I asked why. She said "I've reached the limit of what I think this character should be at in skills and talents." She pointedly did not go for that 5th skill point because she felt as though her character shouldn't be there regardless of things. So would my forumal work for every table? NOPE! But that's ok! This is my way balancing things for my group. Also if you still want the balance but make it less "Super" tack that /2 on there as well. It still gives some growth chance for players but again its not for everyone.

Specifically @_ArthurDallas_
Yes! The formulas would be... as per the current EE rules.
wits + empathy/2 + survival = resolve
strength + agility/2 + stamina = health

Alternatively you could run it like below for less "Super" boost to stats.
wits + empathy + survival /2 = resolve
strength + agility + stamina /2= health

Here is a quick break down of things so people don't need to do the math. Say you have a player who decided to go hard core into a specific stats, EE Rules (Don't forget they round up) Could always round down instead!
> Health: 5str + 4agi /2 = 5 (Now add Stamina of 5 = 10 health. Ok but feels OP after adding Harden (which Tomas says is gonna be a multi buy talent for a total of +3) Which gives us 13 health...
So lets try the alt formula
> 5str + 4agi + 5stam /2 = 7 (Now add Harden +3 gets us back up to 10. Still kinda OP However, the player has also just spent 90xp in regards to EE rules for skill cost)
Could change it up further by /3 instead of 2 even...
> 5str + 4agi /3 = 3 (now add 5stam = 8. Add Harden +3 = 11) That's actually worse... Never mind! lol.

See what I mean its not as OP as you might think at first glance. I've been playing this way for a while and my players and I do like it, it fits our style of game. I feel like there are going to be more Physical based characters who should have more Resolve because they do see that action and live through Survival Training. They deserve a chance to be the "level headed" leader too. As do the Mental based characters should be help to take a hit and not keel over from it if they Trained their bodies and went to the gym or ran everyday.

It gives a use to two hardly ever used stats and gives them a slight or large boost depending on your choice of options. Also you can always round down too! I not asking to make this a thing for the game in the new rules even I can see that this greatly goes in the opposite direction of what they have in mind for the game but this is for my table and I feel like some other tables might like it so I share and spread the word and say "Less squish/stress wanted? Try this! Its a little OP but you have options!"

At the end of the day as much as I love Alien. Its not built for long games and that's ok. I like writing stories and building things. This game gave me the building blocks and foundation to make an insane, intriguing, interlinking and totally epic story for my players. That's all I could ever want.

Edit:
I also want to point out that the investment for "Max Health/Resolve" is going to weaken the character in other skills if they just focus on that alone. They can't actually become "Killing Machines" if they aren't given the option to get the 90xp plus another 75xp for the Ranged Combat. So it might raise your health/resolve op to high numbers that might appear OP at first glance but if you look at the wider perspective of things you will see that it takes ALOT of time to get to those numbers. Most campaigns don't last that long. If they do then I think those characters deserve to have those numbers because they survived that long. At most people might invest 1 to 3 points into survival/stamina in a campaign and spread out points elsewhere. Min/Maxers are gonna find out real quick its not gonna be that easy.

We got a pretty good explanation of the new Stress and Panic, and a pretty quick fix.
Is there any chance of getting an explanation for some of the other decisions which seem counter to what many people wanted with this edition?

Hi!
First, on a general note, we never make design desicions based only on "what people want". We listen to the community yes, and if we get suggestions we think will make the game better, we'll consider them for sure, but in the end we always make design decisions based on what we think will lead to the best possible game. We make games that we would like to play ourselves – that's a design philosophy that has worked pretty well for us so far.

Why is armor a blanket 1 for most everything now?

We are reviewing armor levels now, to give some more variety.

Why are androids terrible at the stuff they should be good at now? (Did people really ask for android changes?)

We didn't make this change because many people were asking for it, but because we felt androids were slightly overpowered. However, based on the feedback, we might roll that change back.

Were the rules dumbed down to better align with a skirmish game?

No. The game has not been "dumbed down" at all. Quite the opposite – we're adding life paths, solo play, more combat options (like weak spots), etc.

How are changes to most of the game mechanics considered "backwards compatible"?

As we have stated many times – it's fully possible to play old expansions with the new rules, and vice versa, with very minor tweaks. To me, that's the definition of backwards compatible.

Not trying to be abrasive, so sorry if this post comes off that way. I think an explanation would go a long way, though, instead of just "look, this is what people wanted." I'm personally still wishing I had not spent the money on this new edition, though I do appreciate you taking a look at the concerns over Stress and Panic.
I do love the 1st edition rules, and I know that I can still use them (and probably will), but that's not super comforting when we still spent money on a new edition that we won't be using (speaking for those of use unhappy with the drastic changes, not speaking for everyone.)

In addition to stress and panic, we are reviewing armor levels and are taking another look at damage and crits as well. We hope to share a new BETA PDF very soon.
Of course, if you still want to refund your pledge for the Evolved Edition, that's completely possible. Just get in touch with our support team and we'll help you out.

I'm looking forward to the next Beta. For what one person's opinion is worth, I've had no concerns about backwards compatibility. The attribute and skill ranges are the same, weapon stats are (I think) all the same. And the creatures have stats in both editions - if there's a drone in a new adventure but I want to use the old rules, I just use the drone from the old rules. Maybe I'm missing something but it's seemed easy enough to me so far. For the fan-adventure I'm working on, I'll be putting stats for both editions next to each other where different but mostly they're going to be the same except synthetics (maybe).

I'm also finding explanations of the reasoning behind changes very helpful and my respect to the developers for taking all this feedback on board. They must feel like they're in the drop ship in Aliens this past week.

"How many editions is this for you, Free League?"
"Thirty-eight. Across game lines."
"How many Alien editions?"
"Uh, two. Including this one..."


(EDIT: To be clear, Gorman is my favourite character in that movie. The older I get, the more I relate to him)

Tomas,

First, I can’t express enough gratitude to you and the folks at Free League for everything. I think my friends get sick of me talking up FL as the best gaming company around. From the IPs, to the rules, to the art, to the quality of the products, we appreciate it through and through.

The thing I might appreciate most is the engagement that you have with the community on here. Everyone here loves this game and wants it to be the best thing it can be when it goes out there. So thank you for taking all this into consideration and for communicating with us. 1E was the best RPG I’ve ever played. EE will be amazing.

One thing I wanted to bring attention to is poster Lurker01 on the last page. Brings up some interesting things about weapons. For me, the most important point they bring up is about the F44AA rifle. It seems too OP for a firearm not adopted by the UA/USCMC.

Their quote:
“The F44AA - Needs work. A lot more Ammo than a standard pulse rifle so bump to 4 from 3, change the bonus down to 1 as it shouldn't be better than the rifle that replaced it but double the Aim bonus from 2 to 4 for all shots at short to medium range. The weapon has Aim Assist but you have to point the barrel in the general direction of what you want to shoot - It's not a Smartgun. It also needs a flaw, a reason that it was never fully adopted as the marine service rifle, Would suggest that the aim assist was only reliable under "optimal conditions" and the ammo cost was prohibitive. Roll two or more facehuggers in combat and the AA seizes up. The weapon can fire but no more Aim Assist until a repair is made. COMTECH roll plus a shift of work. Ammo cost is doubled.”

I am a big supporter of the F44A being included, but should be changed from what it is for lore reasons. Wanted to make sure this was considered. Thank you!