Forum

Very interesting discussion, thank you! We’re currently working on Shadow/Hope, and looking at several of the issues you mention. We’ve already been experimenting since last year with a set of principles that allows players to regain Hope based on their Calling, but that opens them to more serious consequences when facing their ‘Shadow weakness’. We’re not 100% sure that’s the way, because it straightjackets the characters a bit more than before (we don’t favour much the concept of ‘classes’), but we’re working on it.

As far as the ‘spiral’ is concerned, let it be known that permanent Shadow is no more, and that we’re also redeveloping the mechanic that triggers a bout of madness.

Francesco

Thank you Francesco for your answer. And thank you also to our english-talking friends for their answers and discussion on that gripping Shadow/Hope theme (whether they agree or disagree with the 'spiral' issue that we've brought up here). Now I'm more eager for that 2nd edition to come up !

I'm a fan of permanent shadow too - the slow but inexorable descent into corruption. It really works well with DoM, as it gives impetus to retire characters (and choosing when to). I'm certainly open to whatever replaces it, but it's a shame to lose that mechanic, and I hope there's something to replace it that will give a similar motive.

Same here. Exactly my thoughts on the subject.

Unless I was mis-reading it, I think what Francesco is saying is that the new version will accomplish the same outcomes and narratives, without some of the awkward interplay between two different kinds of Shadow.

I like getting rid of permanent Shadow - if anything, this frees the Loremaster to use it a bit more as he doesn't need to worry about pushing players in to potential shorter and shorter spirals in to madness.

Other avenues to get hope back sound good and match the source material too (some good quotes in this thread) - appreciate the challenge of finding the right specific mechanical route for this, bu applaud the general direction.

Unless I was mis-reading it, I think what Francesco is saying is that the new version will accomplish the same outcomes and narratives, without some of the awkward interplay between two different kinds of Shadow.

That would be great! Hope and shadow are really the heart of TOR game system, in my opinion... I really enjoy players pondering seriously the impact of their actions in their Shadow score... it turns into very Middle-Earth flavored characters and stories...

I would have to agree, the centrality of Hope/Shadow and it's impact on player-hero longevity is paramount. One of the best qualities of TOR is it's bound, interlaced with the Twilight of the Third Age and themes of passing, fading, The Long Defeat, and the sudden unlooked for joy of the sun rising in the east. Whether many Loremaster's play out the mechanics of time, change of seasons, returning from adventuring to Year's End and a Fellowship Phase. Those have been powerful motivations in my campaigns. It sets a rhythm to play. That as much as the increased Fatigue from different Travel gear (i.e., something I hope Francesco and company, you're not jettisoning...!). All of these "little" mechanics so often overlooked for the fantastic and playable, shape the course of the world. Permanent Shadow (or some such design choice) helps create that inexorable movement towards retirement, passing your legacy onto an heir, and...the story being made up of more than a single character.

'Beren now, he never thought he was going to get that Silmaril from the Iron Crown in Thangorodrim, and yet he did, and that was a worse place and a blacker danger than ours. But that’s a long tale, of course, and goes on past the happiness and into grief and beyond it – and the Silmaril went on and came to Earendil. And why, sir, I never thought of that before! We’ve got – you’ve got some of the light of it in that star-glass that the Lady gave you! Why, to think of it, we’re in the same tale still! It’s going on. Don’t the great tales never end?’

‘No, they never end as tales,’ said Frodo. ‘But the people in them come, and go when their part’s ended. Our part will end later – or sooner.’ (The Two Towers, II, viii).

...the original TOR mechanics that translate The LR into the game, we should not lose. Whether permanent Shadow or some other device of the Enemy, would it be Middle-earth without?

‘The amount of Experience points to give to players has been calculated considering an average of 3 sessions of play for each complete Adventuring phase. Keeping this pace, each player would receive an average of 6 Experience points, plus 1 or 2 additional points, at the end of each story.This ratio can be adjusted based on the gaming habits of your group: if your games tend to be played in long single sessions (4 hours of more), cutting the number of sittings down to approximately half our average, then you should compensate handing out more supplementary Experience points at the end of the story. If on the contrary your games tend to take multiple sessions, then cut down the final Experience bonus.‘

Well, I didn't manage to work with session-based mechanics in the end.
So, in my games, I replaced it with scenes, for Experience Points, and hope inspiring occasions for the replenishment of the fellowship pool.
Scenes and hope inspiring occasions because in this way the pace of the game is anchored to what happens in the game and not around the table where the game is played, futhermore the need of hope points spur the players to be creative inventing good stories to justifiy a "hope inspiring occasion" in the same way they do using traits.