gyrovague
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Re: My one major peeve with TOR

Mon 13 Jul 2020, 16:45

Are cultural weapons a false idea to begin with in Middle-earth? This is not something I have thought about deeply until now.
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It seems to me Dwarves are culturally associated with axes in Tolkien's Middle-earth; likewise Elves with bows, while Men always seem to use swords.
Then there seems to be some overlap: Elves seem to use daggers for close combat, but can also use swords, while others than Elves also use bows, and so on.

So I'd have to say ... no. Cultural weapons are very much a thing in Middle-earth.
Wait...what? Where do you get elves using daggers?

Even bows are mostly a Mirkwood thing. Elves use spears and swords.
 
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Smog
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Re: My one major peeve with TOR

Mon 13 Jul 2020, 16:55

It seems to me Dwarves are culturally associated with axes in Tolkien's Middle-earth; likewise Elves with bows, while Men always seem to use swords.
Then there seems to be some overlap: Elves seem to use daggers for close combat, but can also use swords, while others than Elves also use bows, and so on.
Wait...what? Where do you get elves using daggers?

Even bows are mostly a Mirkwood thing. Elves use spears and swords.
Probably from Legolas's long knife or the dagger gifted to Aragorn, but yes, there are few other instances that bothers mentioning the Elves using daggers. You have to remember that many of the peoples of Middle-earth are extremely martial (through necessity) and daggers are not a weapon of war.

That said, he is correct that most Elvish cultures throughout the Professor's writings do mention their skill with and usage of bows, from the obvious Mirkwood Silvan Elves to the Galadhrim to Thingol's Sindarin host in Doriath. Spears are mentioned for some of the more iconic Elves, such as Gil-Galad, but by far the most common descriptions for the arms of the Elves were swords and bows (and, in the First Age, very often shields).
Last edited by Smog on Mon 13 Jul 2020, 17:00, edited 1 time in total.
 
Otaku-sempai
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Re: My one major peeve with TOR

Mon 13 Jul 2020, 16:59

My point here is that axes, bows, brawl, spears and swords can just as easily be substituted (house rule) for chopping action; projectile action; 'have a go' action; stab action and slash action.

As an example: a two-handed sword would join Axes (and Maces) in the chopping action group. So when a character was created, an LM might permit a PC to have a two-handed sword, that performed as an axe in combat style. [The mattock in TOR 1e RAW is like a compromise between axe and great axe]
Again the LM and the player can house rule the characteristics of the weapon. I would expect the ability with an axe to transfer to all chopping action weapons: but the damage, edge, injury and encumbrance would vary. Perhaps, as someone has already said, the first rank should take some XP to get started. Or perhaps other weapons in the same Axe/chopping action group are allowed to be used , but with a penalty like raising the TN (reminds me of the Hindered penalty).
Bottom Line: there is always a House Rule! Play and enjoy!
It seems counter-intuitive to place either Two-handed Swords or Maces with Axes. Keep all Swords in the Swords group, otherwise you are spitting Long Swords (essentially Bastard Swords) between Swords and Axes depending on whether you are wielding them with one hand or two. And Maces and Clubs are clearly bashing weapons, not chopping ones. The hypothetical stats for a Two-handed (or Great) Sword in TOR 1E are pretty easy to determine:

Two-handed Sword:
Damage: 9
Edge: 10
Injury: 18
Encumbrance: 4
Group: Swords
Notes: Two-handed weapon. Not usable by Dwarves or Hobbits (or small Orcs).
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Re: My one major peeve with TOR

Mon 13 Jul 2020, 17:02

Wait...what? Where do you get elves using daggers?

Even bows are mostly a Mirkwood thing. Elves use spears and swords.
Everyone uses Daggers. Knives are as much (or more) a utilitarian, everyday tool as a weapon. And (as has been stated) don't forget the bows of the Galadrim (more Wood-elves).

It seems like, under this new system, certain weapon types (Clubs, Maces, Pole-arms other than Spears) are getting the shaft--so to speak. Granted, some Pole-arms (such as Pikes, Javelins and Glaives) can simply be classed under Spears. Pole-axes and Halberds are a bit trickier, arguing for a separate Pole-arms group. And I realize that most of these do no show up officially in the legendarium.
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Vader
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Re: My one major peeve with TOR

Mon 13 Jul 2020, 17:35

It seems to me Dwarves are culturally associated with axes in Tolkien's Middle-earth; likewise Elves with bows, while Men always seem to use swords.
Then there seems to be some overlap: Elves seem to use daggers for close combat, but can also use swords, while others than Elves also use bows, and so on.
Wait...what? Where do you get elves using daggers?

Even bows are mostly a Mirkwood thing. Elves use spears and swords.
Probably from Legolas's long knife or the dagger gifted to Aragorn, but yes, there are few other instances that bothers mentioning the Elves using daggers. You have to remember that many of the peoples of Middle-earth are extremely martial (through necessity) and daggers are not a weapon of war.
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I'd say that a dagger is a weapon of war in about the same way that a pistol is - primarily as a back-up weapon. And unlike a "knife" - which usually is a tool - a "dagger" is specifically made to be a weapon. Looking at medieval tomb effigies of knights in full martial attire, it is not uncommon to see them wearing a dagger along with a sword.

What was floating at the back of my head regarding Elves and daggers was indeed primarily references Legolas's "long knife". Whenever engaging in close combat, this seems to be the weapon he employs. And how Elves fought during earlier Ages notwithstanding, I can't recall exactly what other weapons they are seen using in LOTR.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
Lem23
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Re: My one major peeve with TOR

Mon 13 Jul 2020, 18:03


My only question would be: Is the concept of cultural weapons ending altogether?
If anything, it seems like cultural weapons are taking over completely - rather than having a short sword skill, a sword skill, etc, you will now have Swords; rather than great spear and spear, you;ll now have spears as a category. No more individual weapons, everything will be part of a group, akin to the cultural weapons groups. Perhaps in place of cultural weapons per se, we'll have certain weapons groups favoured for particular cultures.
 
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Re: My one major peeve with TOR

Mon 13 Jul 2020, 18:48

I'd say that a dagger is a weapon of war in about the same way that a pistol is - primarily as a back-up weapon. And unlike a "knife" - which usually is a tool - a "dagger" is specifically made to be a weapon. Looking at medieval tomb effigies of knights in full martial attire, it is not uncommon to see them wearing a dagger along with a sword.

What was floating at the back of my head regarding Elves and daggers was indeed primarily references Legolas's "long knife". Whenever engaging in close combat, this seems to be the weapon he employs. And how Elves fought during earlier Ages notwithstanding, I can't recall exactly what other weapons they are seen using in LOTR.
That is exactly what I was implying. I was simply saying no warrior, Elf or otherwise, would use a dagger as a primary weapon. That kind of stuff works in modern D&D and anime, but less-so in a setting grounded in the realities of medieval warfare. Many characters are described as carrying daggers, but as was said by others in this thread, it's more of a tool and last resort weapon.

There are very few Elves whose arms are described specifically in Lord of the Rings, because other than Legolas, few Elves are featured doing anything martial in that story. Glorfindel drove the remaining Nazgul into the flooded Ford of Bruinen, but what weapon he was wielding -- if any -- is left undescribed as all that Frodo could see before falling unconscious was the Elf-lord's blazing fëa (though we can assume he wielded at least a sword as he did in the First Age). Haldir and his fellow Galadhrims' weapons are also not described during the escort of the Fellowship to Caras Galadhon, but considering Legolas's translation of their being able to "shoot (Sam) in the dark," we can probably assume they carried bows of the Galadhrim. Elladan and Elrohir rode with Aragorn to Minas Tirith, but again their arms were not detailed.

All of that said, much we know of Middle-earth has to be derived from and assumed consistent with Tolkien's other writings, letters, and compiled works from Christopher, and I see no reason not to assume that Elves in the Third Age would not arm themselves in the same way they did in ages past. That is to say we can likely assume Glorfindel wielded a sword as he did in Gondolin, the brothers swords and bows like the Rangers they so often rode with and as was standard for the Noldor, and the Galadhrim bows and likely swords or daggers (as was the custom of other Silvan Elves).
 
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Re: My one major peeve with TOR

Mon 13 Jul 2020, 18:54

What was floating at the back of my head regarding Elves and daggers was indeed primarily references Legolas's "long knife". Whenever engaging in close combat, this seems to be the weapon he employs. And how Elves fought during earlier Ages notwithstanding, I can't recall exactly what other weapons they are seen using in LOTR.
There's that, but that is (almost?) entirely Legolas in the movies, isn't it? In Tolkien's legendarium, I recall him mostly relying on his bow(s). And granted there are many kinds of knives, dirks and daggers, with many designed specifically for combat.
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Mon 13 Jul 2020, 19:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My one major peeve with TOR

Mon 13 Jul 2020, 18:58

If anything, it seems like cultural weapons are taking over completely - rather than having a short sword skill, a sword skill, etc, you will now have Swords; rather than great spear and spear, you;ll now have spears as a category. No more individual weapons, everything will be part of a group, akin to the cultural weapons groups. Perhaps in place of cultural weapons per se, we'll have certain weapons groups favoured for particular cultures.
Perhaps Masteries will only be available for specific weapons and not weapon groups? And maybe it will still be possible to advance in ranks with specific weapons?
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Smog
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Re: My one major peeve with TOR

Mon 13 Jul 2020, 19:04

There's that, but that is (almost?) entirely Legolas in the movies, isn't it? In Tolkien's legendarium, I recall him mostly relying on his bow(s). And granted there are many kinds of knives and daggers, with many designed specifically for combat.
Actually not quite! You have to remember that Tolkien did not often overly-describe battle scenes, but largely summarized them without too specific of detail. His bow was absolutely his primary weapon, but Legolas is described as having run out of arrows and having to resort to his knife several times throughout LotR, probably the most iconic of which is during the Battle of the Hornburg when he tells Gimli that it's "been knife-work up here" (Legolas had been on the wall while Gimli had been down at the culvert with Gamling).

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