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Vader
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Re: 2019-era LAPD Sidearm (aka. "Deckard's Blaster")

Tue 17 May 2022, 09:25

They wanted a revolver because it fitted the character, that was the look they where after. A classic detective look. They added some other things it to make it look like a future weapon, things that didn't have any apparent purpose other than to make it look big, powerful, a bit unique and like something from the future. They didn't have to explain how this work, what everything was, why there are two triggers and so on. It is a sci-fi looking revolver. If FL would change that, a whole lot of people would wonder why (and also the weapon would no longer be the Blade Runner Blaster).

As I seem to recall, it's actually the other way around: they weren't "shooting for" (pun intended) a "sci-fi looking revolver", but rather a "revolver-looking Sci-Fi gun".

The "bastard child of a hair dyer and a hand vacuum" design that Syd Mead drew for Sir Ridley's "Black Hole-Beam Gun" didn't fit the aesthetic (duh!). Instead, the prop makers were directed to create something with rough lines that aesthetically could remind the viewer of a revolver.
By no means was it necessary for it to actually be (as in in-world "actually") a revolver! Nor, indeed, does it bear any — any! — external feature recognisably belonging to one.

And as you say: they didn't explain how anything works. They didn't need to — after all, it is just a Saturday Night Special dressed up to be unrecognisable, and look cool and futuristic. That's all it was or ever needed to be.

For the filmmakers.

For us though, it's a bit different, innit? In the world of our game, in the hands of our characters, it's a real gun, where all the greeblies suddenly have a real function. And so, we need to rationalise them — preferably in a way that actually doesn't directly contradict what our senses tell us when actually looking at the weapon (wouldn't be the first time, though).
Last edited by Vader on Tue 17 May 2022, 14:51, edited 2 times in total.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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Re: 2019-era LAPD Sidearm (aka. "Deckard's Blaster")

Tue 17 May 2022, 09:26

Precisely the point I've been struggling to communicate, here: an on-set prop weapon's construction and functionality differs from the in-world weapon's functionality.

A point that seems to have become lost in this game, though.
Michael Biehn and William Hope's lines diegetically define the capabilities of the M-41A. Blade Runner lacks such dialog. We know what an M-41A is supposed to be, we can only infer things about Deckard's gun. All we know about the thing in-world (based solely on the film) is that it makes a bass report and large, Hollywood exit wounds.

Correct! Except, we do know a little more than that — see the original post on this thread.

But there seems to be an assumption here that unless an artefact's design is explicitly shown to be otherwise on-screen, then the real-world, on-set design will be considered to be true also in-world. I've seen a similar philosophy prevail here and there in their other products, as well.

Judging from the image I quoted earlier, they infer nothing about the core functionality of the Blaster — they just state it to be what the prop is: a five-shot revolver.

And this in spite of that the revolver is so well hidden in the prop that for 24 years, nobody even in the nerdiest nooks of the fan community knew that there was a revolver in there! Sure, some guessed it might be so, but that guess was highly contentious — all the way until 2006 and Worldcon.

I maintain that this assumption is fundamentally flawed. Especially with sci-fi weapons, I believe in-world functionality should be assumed to be different from the prop's.
To wit: nobody says anything about how the Smartgun works in ALIENS, but I believe very few would maintain that it's simply an MG42 with a fancy aiming assist.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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Re: 2019-era LAPD Sidearm (aka. "Deckard's Blaster")

Tue 17 May 2022, 09:27

The Steyr-Mannlicher receiver part is a single shot, loading and ejection through the same port, cycled with the bolt lever, and activated by the second trigger.
It's calibre is smaller, so reflects different ammo.
The lack of appreciable barrel maybe suggests accuracy is an issue.
Maybe self contained gas discharged rounds focused on utility (flare, tracer) or non-lethal (taser, tranquilliser) might fit the bill.

Nice to see others pick up the speculation baton!

The Steyr receiver doesn't go full circle far enough to form any barrel of any kind, short or long — see the full-frontal image of the blaster in Adam Savage's hand:

Image

It should also be noted that the receiver is truncated right at the chamber — there are just a couple of mm's of end plate in front of where the bolt stops. There literally is no barrel at all.

This suggests to me that whatever the Steyr receiver does, it needs to somehow interact with whatever happens inside the Bulldog barrel — it can't be a wholly separate "secondary weapon".
Which kind of already would rule out the pistol at its core being anything like an ordinary revolver.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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Re: 2019-era LAPD Sidearm (aka. "Deckard's Blaster")

Tue 17 May 2022, 09:28

If you're willing to part with around $1,000 for a replica prop, are you imagining it just as the prop, or does it cross the line into a relic of the setting?

Good question!

For my own part, I look at it with something like a split vision.

On the one hand, I see the prop for what it is: the revolver, the functionally inert greeblies. All that jazz.

But on the other, I also see the relic of the setting — the in-world weapon, where there is no "Bulldog revolver", no "Steyr receiver", no other "greeblies". Instead, there is just a single, beautifully integrated weapon, made of parts that need to somehow function together in a way that makes technical sense.


But I must say, for the latter — imagining and speculating what the various greeblies might be for, and figuring out a plausible functionality of the in-world weapon in my head, gains a lot from being able to hold it and turn it about in my hands.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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Re: 2019-era LAPD Sidearm (aka. "Deckard's Blaster")

Mon 23 May 2022, 19:23

Okay, here we can learn in painful detail what the entire Ligan write-up on the Blaster actually is (hi-res image):

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_ ... _TRADE.jpg

  • It's a 5-shot .44cal revolver (exactly what the filming prop is — except they say it's a ".44 10mm Caseless" revolver, whatever the hell that is!)
  • It has a removable(??) .222 rifle on top (exactly what the filming prop has as a greeblie ... apart from the "removable" bit!) for a "long range" capability never even hinted at in the movie (never mind that there is no space, neither vertically nor horizontally, for a barrel, or even a chamber ... nor is there anything like an actual muzzle opening in front of the receiver!)
  • The double trigger is a "precision aiming hair trigger" primer (exactly what the double-trigger version of the IRL Steyr rifle has), a function never even hinted at in the movie
  • The "mystery rod" (in the fan community colloquially called the "sight rod") houses a "non-lethal Sonic Blaster" (what? Captain Harkness' weapon??) function never even hinted at in the movie
  • The button-head screw on top the receiver is now the weapon's "sight"
  • It does NOT have a selective explosive round capability — a function which IS explicitly shown in the movie.

Well ... what can one say? It's certainly a beautiful couple of pages. I really do hope though that the quality of their content isn't representative of the rest of the product.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
Vagrant
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Re: 2019-era LAPD Sidearm (aka. "Deckard's Blaster")

Mon 23 May 2022, 20:41

I found it quite refreshing at the time that Deckard's pistol had secrets. The film makers did not feel the need to manufacture situations to reveal what every switch, lever, and barrel was for ;)

Of course, that doesn't really help when it comes to figuring out the pistols in game features.

I haven't read the comics so wonder if they hold more information on the capabilities that the films don't reveal.

I don't recall K using any explosive rounds in 2049, and when Deckard uses it in Sebastian's apartment is it an explosive round or does it just hit something that explodes?

As for Fria Ligan's version it's a start point.
If there are features I don't like, I'll just change them for my game.

First to go will be the .223 rifle cartridge for long range, without a barrel the accuracy will be next to zero.
Besides, given the urban, densely populated environment it's dubious to the opportunity to use it. You could just about justify it as a last ditch, close combat, anti-armour option.
I feel at this point I'll likely stick with my original take on a single shot chamber that can hold a variety of non-lethal tactical munitions. The most common to be chambered a taser cartridge, the dart of which can just be seen protruding from the extremely short barrel, if it can be considered a barrel at all.

The 'sonic blaster' doesn't work for me either. I'm happy enough to leave it as a sight.
The box under the barrel, the 'sonic charger', will be a stabilisation unit.
I would like to know where the theory of non-lethal sonic blaster comes from? And if it does exist in canon somewhere what does it say about Deckard and K that they never felt the need to use I?

The double triggers are for the two munition systems. The rear trigger activates the .44 internal chambers, the front trigger the top .223 tactical chamber.

Caseless ammo suggests it could carry more punch for the same volume. If propellant tech has improved enough there could be potential to double stack rounds in the cartridge doubling the capacity to 10 rounds.
Last edited by Vagrant on Tue 24 May 2022, 23:07, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: 2019-era LAPD Sidearm (aka. "Deckard's Blaster")

Mon 23 May 2022, 23:25

I found it quite refreshing at the time that Deckard's pistol had secrets. The film makers did not feel the need to manufacture situations to reveal what every switch, lever, and barrel was for ;)

Of course, that doesn't really help when it comes to figuring out the pistols in game features.

I haven't read the comics so wonder if they hold more information on the capabilities that the films don't reveal.

I don't recall K using any explosive rounds in 2049, and when Deckard uses it in Sebastian's apartment is it an explosive round or does it just hit something that explodes?

As for Fria Ligan's version it's a start point.
If there are features I don't like, I'll just change them for my game.

First to go will be the .223 rifle cartridge for long range, without a barrel the accuracy will be next to zero, add in the extra recoil you can probably add a dropped pistol or bruised wrist into the mix. Besides, given the urban, densely populated environment it's dubious to the opportunity to use it. You could just about justify it as a last ditch, close combat, anti-armour option.
I feel at this point I'll likely stick with my original take on a single shot chamber that can hold a variety of non-lethal tactical munitions. The most common to be chambered a taser cartridge, the dart of which can just be seen protruding from the extremely short barrel, if it can be considered a barrel at all.

The 'sonic blaster' doesn't work for me either. I'm happy enough to leave it as a sight.
The box under the barrel, the 'sonic charger', will be a stabilisation unit.
I would like to know where the theory of non-lethal sonic blaster comes from? And if it does exist in canon somewhere what does it say about Deckard and K that they never felt the need to use I?

The double triggers are for the two munition systems. The rear trigger activates the .44 internal chambers, the front trigger the top .223 tactical chamber.

Caseless ammo suggests it could carry more punch for the same volume. If propellant tech has improved enough there could be potential to double stack rounds in the cartridge doubling the capacity to 10 rounds.

Glad to see I'm not the only one ... disinclined to use the Ligan representation of the Blaster straight off... Myself though, I don't need the box of tricks — I'd be happy if they just had adequate rationalisations for the features we do see, never mind the extras we don't.

For my own part, I never put much stock in the "Deckard's stray round just happens to hit the vial of nitroglycerine Sebastian just happens to have lying on his bed (as one does)" rationalisation. Occam's Razor. To my mind, the simplest explanation for why there is an explosion where the round hits can hardly be other than that it is the round that explodes. Anything else would require an extremely unlikely confluence of conditions and coincidences.

The periphery of the .44 barrel passes just a few millimetres below the centreline of the .223 bore — see the picture I posted a couple of days ago. With the Bulldog taking upp all space, there is no way the end of the Steyr receiver ever could form a barrel for anything much larger than a 2mm pinfire round... Note also that the Steyr's bolt ends just an inch behind the Bulldog's muzzle. There is no place to put a chamber for any kind of round. Again, with the possible exception of a 2mm pinfire. The protruding thing is actually the end of the bolt. Pretty much where the firing pin would be.
Which is the reason why I prefer to rationalise the Steyr parts as integral to the weapon as a whole — a part of the mechanism for whatever it is the Bulldog barrel fires.

Sonic technology comes from Gallifrey. Obviously. And Time Lords, as we know, love to style themselves as pacifists ... while killing worlds.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
Vagrant
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Re: 2019-era LAPD Sidearm (aka. "Deckard's Blaster")

Mon 23 May 2022, 23:53

I see what you mean about the Mannlicher bolt now, I hadn't noticed how far back the image shows it being pulled back.

I'm sure in the physical prop I saw the bolt arm revolved to open the ejection port but didn't slide back much, if at all (maybe the handler just made sure this didn't happen I've watched so many BR pistol you tubes I can't remember which one).

I think any workable compromise would need to feature and explain the mechanics of the prop due to its prevelance.

With that in mind, I'll probably move away from my thoughts as the top barrel having more utility. Instead of being able to fire a wide variety of .223 calibre munitions it is instead purely some form of taser.
The bolt rotates and draws back allowing the cartridge to be hand chambered through the side port. When the mechanism is locked back it crushes the cartridge releasing and compressing the gas propellant ready for discharge.

I don't consider Blade Runners or the Voight-Kampff test to be infallible, it would be useful to have a non-lethal option to hand for those times when they are not certain.

But not a stick thin sonic blaster ;)
 
paladin2019
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Re: 2019-era LAPD Sidearm (aka. "Deckard's Blaster")

Tue 24 May 2022, 00:23

Looking at the stats, what is the Crit Die? It seems this game will use a different critical hit determination than T:2k.
 
Vagrant
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Re: 2019-era LAPD Sidearm (aka. "Deckard's Blaster")

Tue 24 May 2022, 07:17

Possibly a crit table where the higher the number the worse the outcome for the target.
The lower crit die will lock you out of some of the deadlier effects.
Or maybe in similar fashion to the skill rolls you have to roll 6 or above to confirm a crit.

Looking forward to the pdf release to see more specifics on the rules.
Last edited by Vagrant on Tue 24 May 2022, 19:32, edited 1 time in total.

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