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Adding more ways to recover Hope sounds like a very good idea. There's plenty of good ideas to make.

Many good replies here already, but my view on the matter is that there certainly is no “bug” in the rules regarding hope/shadow. On the contrary I believe the rules are working as intended. After 87 sessions in my campaign one hero has 3 flaws and permanent shadows. He’s certainly on a slippery slope. One character has one flaw/permanent shadow. Two players are pretty low on hope but have prioritized getting rid of shadow.

As others have mentioned it’s important to try to get hope back and not go too low. You have the fellowship pool that can help a character low on hope, the one hope from fellowship focus is important but easily forgotten, and you can recover hope after directly helping your fellowship focus. Beyond that there are undertakings like Visit the Kingstone or the powerful There and back again.

The flaw in your example is the characters behavior I think. Going into Dol Guldur is of course dangerous. I would never, starting with low 7 hope, spend 4 hope to be down on 3 in such a dangerous place; neither will my players. If the rolls are absolutely necessary I would ask the other players to use the points from the fellowship pool, otherwise simply accept a failure. There is indeed a risk of a corruption spiral when you’re down on 3-4 hope. Avoid it at all cost!

Session Length is of course a thing. Regarding xp the raw On of 213 discusses ‘normal” sessions being shorter than 4 hours: the reasoning below could be considered when to refill the fellowship pool.

‘The amount of Experience points to give to players has been calculated considering an average of 3 sessions of play for each complete Adventuring phase. Keeping this pace, each player would receive an average of 6 Experience points, plus 1 or 2 additional points, at the end of each story.This ratio can be adjusted based on the gaming habits of your group: if your games tend to be played in long single sessions (4 hours of more), cutting the number of sittings down to approximately half our average, then you should compensate handing out more supplementary Experience points at the end of the story. If on the contrary your games tend to take multiple sessions, then cut down the final Experience bonus.‘

Very interesting discussion, thank you! We’re currently working on Shadow/Hope, and looking at several of the issues you mention. We’ve already been experimenting since last year with a set of principles that allows players to regain Hope based on their Calling, but that opens them to more serious consequences when facing their ‘Shadow weakness’. We’re not 100% sure that’s the way, because it straightjackets the characters a bit more than before (we don’t favour much the concept of ‘classes’), but we’re working on it.

As far as the ‘spiral’ is concerned, let it be known that permanent Shadow is no more, and that we’re also redeveloping the mechanic that triggers a bout of madness.

Francesco

‘The amount of Experience points to give to players has been calculated considering an average of 3 sessions of play for each complete Adventuring phase. Keeping this pace, each player would receive an average of 6 Experience points, plus 1 or 2 additional points, at the end of each story.This ratio can be adjusted based on the gaming habits of your group: if your games tend to be played in long single sessions (4 hours of more), cutting the number of sittings down to approximately half our average, then you should compensate handing out more supplementary Experience points at the end of the story. If on the contrary your games tend to take multiple sessions, then cut down the final Experience bonus.‘

I'll be darned, the corebook does basically say normal sessions are 3-4 hours. I thought I remembered that they did, but didn't bother confirming when it was stated earlier that it wasn't. I was just going off of what is kind of common RPG practice now-a-days, but good to see they actually do outline session length (albeit in a sidebar and only in regards to XP). This info should definitely be in a more prominent position, likely its own small paragraph/section that's purely about session length.

Thanks for the reference, Dunkelbrink.

Francesco
Very interesting discussion, thank you! We’re currently working on Shadow/Hope, and looking at several of the issues you mention. We’ve already been experimenting since last year with a set of principles that allows players to regain Hope based on their Calling, but that opens them to more serious consequences when facing their ‘Shadow weakness’. We’re not 100% sure that’s the way, because it straightjackets the characters a bit more than before (we don’t favour much the concept of ‘classes’), but we’re working on it.

As far as the ‘spiral’ is concerned, let it be known that permanent Shadow is no more, and that we’re also redeveloping the mechanic that triggers a bout of madness.

Oh, I spit-balled a mechanic that was already in potential development? Feels good.

If you guys don't like the restrictive nature of Callings (and adding further calling-specific mechanics to them), have you considered getting rid of them and simply letting people choose all of the elements of a Calling at creation? Basically instead of picking a Calling, just add the steps where you pick your Favoured Skill Groups, Trait, Shadow Weakness, and -- let's call it -- Inspiration (i.e. the set of guidelines or principles by which your character can regain Hope)? I'm imagining a large table or set of choices for each group for the player to pick from, potentially even more than there were with 1e Callings.

In regards to doing away with permanent Shadow, can you explain a bit more about what that might look like? I have to admit that's initially a bit alarming since permanent Shadow is a great mechanic to show the gradual weariness the world places upon heroes and those that constantly confront the Enemy (especially Elves). I really like how permanent Shadow puts a mechanic to Elves' world-weariness that eventually is what drives them to sail west, or can symbolize a Dwarf's fall to madness and greed such as what happened to Thrain, etc.

I'm curious without permanent Shadow what takes its place as the engine that drives what I call the "spiritual character-death", i.e. the forced retirement of a character for reasons other than physical death, as thematically it is very appropriate to the setting.

Very interesting discussion, thank you! We’re currently working on Shadow/Hope, and looking at several of the issues you mention. We’ve already been experimenting since last year with a set of principles that allows players to regain Hope based on their Calling, but that opens them to more serious consequences when facing their ‘Shadow weakness’. We’re not 100% sure that’s the way, because it straightjackets the characters a bit more than before (we don’t favour much the concept of ‘classes’), but we’re working on it.

As far as the ‘spiral’ is concerned, let it be known that permanent Shadow is no more, and that we’re also redeveloping the mechanic that triggers a bout of madness.

Francesco

I like what I'm hearing! As far as pigeonholing characters based on their calling, and trying to keep callings from becoming classes; I completely understand. One of the things I love about this game is the freedom for characters to develop themselves how they want throughout the campaign and not being limited by "skill trees". What about a solution where there are a few universal rules for gaining hope, but then have each calling have 1 unique option that allows them to explore the theme of their calling without forcing them into a repetitive set of actions or abilities?

I'm a fan of permanent shadow too - the slow but inexorable descent into corruption. It really works well with DoM, as it gives impetus to retire characters (and choosing when to). I'm certainly open to whatever replaces it, but it's a shame to lose that mechanic, and I hope there's something to replace it that will give a similar motive.

I'm curious without permanent Shadow what takes its place as the engine that drives what I call the "spiritual character-death", i.e. the forced retirement of a character for reasons other than physical death, as thematically it is very appropriate to the setting.

Flaws can do that work, I think. The Permanent Shadow increase is just a way to narrow your margin to the next Bout of Madness, but in the end it's not what forces a character to retire. It is acquiring the fifth Flaw.

If, for instance, the maximum Hope would decrease after each Bout of Madness and Shadow would simply reset to 0, then it would all work the same regarding numbers. Your acquired Flaw, not the number of Permanent Shadow points, is what reminds you the character is "losing it".

Flaws can do that work, I think. The Permanent Shadow increase is just a way to narrow your margin to the next Bout of Madness, but in the end it's not what forces a character to retire. It is aquiring the fifth Flaw.

If, for instance, the maximum Hope would decrease after each Bout of Madness and Shadow would simply reset to 0, then it would all work the same regarding numbers. Your acquired Flaw, not the number of Permanent Shadow points, is what reminds you the characters is "losing it".

Very good point; I like this! It would work roughly the same, but also better represent, say, a fading Elf having less and less Hope for Middle-earth as the years drag on, eventually being able to muster none at all and having to return to the West.

Do you think that might overly prioritize maximizing beginning Hope scores, though? And conversely, how do you think this would represent permanent touches of Shadow, such as Frodo's wound from the Morgul-knife or the extended burden of carrying a ring of power? Would those also simply be represented by permanent reductions of Hope?

Do you think that might overly prioritize maximizing beginning Hope scores, though? And conversely, how do you think this would represent permanent touches of Shadow, such as Frodo's wound from the Morgul-knife or the extended burden of carrying a ring of power? Would those also simply be represented by permanent reductions of Hope?

Very good question!

...and one I'm not able to answer righ now, being 00h at my place and going to get some sleep. XD

But I'll think about it (unless the answer is "get another Flaw", or "reduce the rate at which you can decrease Shadow by half, rounding down") and read what others think about it.