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Vader
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Re: [ALPHA] An attempt at summarizing the world building discussion

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 18:09

You can't please everybody. No matter what you do, there will always be some people who don't like what you do. If you start to remake everything just because some people dislikes it, you will most likely just end up with something else the same group dislikes or you upset another group of people that thinks that it should be rewritten again.
That said, of course they should listen to what people say (and they most likely do) and they may do changes here and there.

You are right, of course.

However, the way I see it, the game itself isn't actually made for the benefit of its authors or publishers; it's made for our benefit — we, the players who look to play it.
The sales revenue the game garners is the part that is for the publishers' benefit — and that is what they'll primarily need to safeguard.

And, even so, I still agree with you — as long as those who express displeasure with the worldbuilding are, as has been suggested, just a few loudmouths and malcontents, then they can indeed be shrugged off as irrelevant, regardless of whether their complaint has cause or not.

Butif the portion of the consumer base that is dissatisfied with the product should turn out to be large enough to actually affect the post-Kickstarter sales — then taking proper heed and thoroughly addressing the issues causing the dissatisfaction while doing so still is relatively easy would strike me as a wise course of action.

Right now we can only speculate of course, but it does seem to me that it is not all that far out from the realms of the possible to think that the #2's of my list actually are a fair bunch.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
Nicolas Michon
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Re: [ALPHA] An attempt at summarizing the world building discussion

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 19:58

I am optimistic that, if criticism is constructive, the FL folks will draw from it - many of us have tried hard to make as few changes to the end result as possible (or ones that expand possibilities), precisely to limit the disruption to the overall world building. Otherwise, what is the point of submitting an Alpha way in advance? I also don"t think there will be, for instance, many players who INSIST there should be a full scale invasion of the UK .... and I wiln be quite happy to brainstorm more ideas, even though it looks like the FL fan hivemind has comd up with relatively easy fixes.
 
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Re: [ALPHA] An attempt at summarizing the world building discussion

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 20:22

I'm not sure what the problem would be with preserving the Warsaw Pact. If anything it adds some ambiguity to encounters between former Soviet and supposedly allied former Pact forces when things go belly up. Post Pact, those Eastern European forces' relationships with Soviet military would have a much clearer starting point.
 
Nicolas Michon
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Re: [ALPHA] An attempt at summarizing the world building discussion

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 21:59

It is hard to keep the Warsaw Pact if the timeline diverges so late: by 1991, most WarPac countries were very busy trying to rebuild, establish trade & security relationships with Western Europe, and would have no interest in continuing participation in the Pact, so it is difficult to explain from a political standpoint. Not to mention the fact that Germany had reunified, depriving the Pact of its strongest (most trusted) member. Poland, Hungary were deliberately under-equipped because they were seen as unreliable, and Czechoslovakia wasn't much better. So not keeping the Pact is actually the (much) more plausible reading - and it does raise military issues that nukes can kinda solve .....
 
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Re: [ALPHA] An attempt at summarizing the world building discussion

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 22:06

Oh, if the timeline diverges only where it’s been said it does — August 1991 — then it’s impossible to keep the Pact! It had already been formally dissolved earlier that year, by which time several states already had seceded from it as their Communist regimes fell.

The only way to keep it around is by having the timeline diverge already several years earlier — which also opens for several different possibilities for addressing the issues you mention.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
Arrigo74
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Re: [ALPHA] An attempt at summarizing the world building discussion

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 22:12

Nicholas,

I think you are wrong here. First of all Czech and Poland were actually producing heavy equipment, and even selling it back to the Soviet Army, so it is difficult to see them underequipped. Also the Czech were closely integrated in the CGF and had an offensive role. Conversely, you had two good armies that are working with NATO in the current timeline, but automagically collapse faced by the Soviets...

The nukes thing does not solve anything. I know you said it does, but it does not. NATO would retaliate in kind and hamper the soviets even more, plus tactical nuclear weapons are not panacea except if you are in dire straits. So NATO should be crossing on SU in this scenario for them to be used (that it was what happened on 1st Edition...) . The key issue is that, if you want a credible Soviet treat is that changes must happen before 1991 and save the Pact (that frankly is quite easy to do, just stop the perestroika in 87...). Otherwise Nukes or no nukes, the soviet would be hard pressed to just push into Poland. Never mind all the multiple thrusts and never mind their by then rotten navy going all the way (because the current timeline says the SU had economic 'troubles' and the navy would be the first victim).

I think here you fail to see the real underlying problem. Just a nuke quick fix will not change it... (and actually it was just one of these solution uttered with more or less no knowledge of the issue).

I think that at this point is more important to propose fixes for the real issues, rather than cosmetic quick fixes, that frankly, just broken a broken thing even more.
Who watches the watchers? Who moderates the moderators?
 
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Vader
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Re: [ALPHA] An attempt at summarizing the world building discussion

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 22:22

I think that at this point is more important to propose fixes for the real issues, rather than cosmetic quick fixes, that frankly, just broken a broken thing even more.

There are many ways to skin this particular cat.
However, while I feel the issue is important and really needs to be addressed, I’d not be extremely keen on spending actual effort on it just at random. I think someone used the phrase “shouting into a well” in one of the earlier discussions.
It would be reassuring to have some kind of indication that id something is being sent, it is also being received.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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Re: [ALPHA] An attempt at summarizing the world building discussion

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 22:31

How much more clear can they be? Multiple times the world building stuff has been commented on by Tomas directly. They are clearly reacting to what is being said. Some of the comments have been beyond hostile and/or pedantic; in my experience the more of those there are the less likely positive change is to develop.

I fully expect to rehash this entire conversation whenever the next release comes out. It is beyond obvious that not everyone will be happy. So it goes.
Author, Central Poland Sourcebook -- now available on DriveThruRPG
 
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Re: [ALPHA] An attempt at summarizing the world building discussion

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 22:37

I wouldn't worry about FL not knowing what issues you are talking about, they know.
"Thanks for noticing' me." - Eeyore
 
Nicolas Michon
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Re: [ALPHA] An attempt at summarizing the world building discussion

Thu 03 Dec 2020, 00:28

Hello,

Arrigo: I am also trying to minimize the disruption to the timeline. Taking your approach, which makes a lot of sense, would completely switch front lines around. The game would most likely take place in Germany then - if Perestroïka were reversed in 1987, there is no reunification, and the frontline stays where it was. It would not bother me so much but the original game is set in Poland, . I find it at least "remotely plausible" that the reorganizing Polish and Czech army would have been beaten back initially by a reinvigorated Soviet army, which would have benefitted from much shorter supply lines than those it had to deal with in, say, 1985: Under an Iron Sky. While the Poles and Czechs did produce their own weapons systems, and no one disputes they would have fought like lions, they were also deliberately starved of the most modern equipment: very few T-72s (and those the T72M export variant), no BMP-2s, some T34/85s still in service in the Polish army in 89 (yup!) same goes for missiles and, even more so, planes. We did have discussions with Fabrizio Vianello on his harsh rating of the Polish air force, and all of that - and more - came up. So, the tac nukes idea is not a panacea for the reasons you stated, but it can help explain why the initial NATO counterattacks don't succeed. I also focused more on the "Invasion UK" issue, which is even more problematic - but again, you need to find a way to put some troops there.

All of this is far from perfect, but one has to strike a balance between full military realism (with the caveat war can be seriously unpredictable) and preserving aspects of the background players are used to. Now, your background certainly makes you more sensitive to these issues than I am - my natural inclination is to find a middle ground, rather than go down a route that would require FL to scrap most of its background for the game, which is very unlikely to happen.

So, yeah, maybe the proposed fixes are cosmetic, but I'll be happy if they are made, and I do want to help expand the universe (France is ripe, but there will be other areas as well).

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