Forum

Smog
If you are playing longer sessions, the Loremaster should be breaking them up and refreshing your pool halfway through. The normal expectation for a "session" of TOR is about 4 hours. If you're playing all-day marathons for 8-10 hours, you should be refreshing the Fellowship Pool when you break for dinner or whatever the approximate halfway point is."

I had a look at both core rules book and Darkening of Mirkwood book and it never says that a session last about 4 hours. It only says that "usually, a full adventure should not take more than two or three sessions of play to complete" ==> no indication of session duration (unless I missed it in the book). And having the pool refreshed after 2 hours (a small evening game), 4 hours (a good evening / afternoon game) or 20 hours (a full week-end game) isn't the same : it's not the same game.

Now that's right that it says that the "A company’s Fellowship pool is completely refreshed at the beginning of each new gaming session.". If at the end of a session, the characters are resting in a relatively safe place where they can have a break, then I'm fine with that "refresh fellowship pool". But how do you explain having that "refresh fellowship pool" when the session ends with characters in the darkest place of the Wild Lands (Mirkwood/Dol Guldur), with no secure shelter, with adversaries all around them ? It is a completely artificial mechanism, unrelated to the real context of the characters.

I personnaly hope that this "session / fellowship pool" is removed and replaced by something less artificial in TOR 2nd edition (maybe there is already something about that in the changes that we know about 2nd ed., I didn't check).

Smog
I'm also unsure why you seem so surprised by a PC falling to the Shadow in this adventure. I absolutely get what you're saying about it feeling like an inevitable spiral, but they are in the deadliest and darkest location in all of the base region (Wilderland/Rhovanion). If a player doesn't run a very serious and real risk of losing their character here, then the game isn't being terribly realistic or immersive. I know if I were a player at the table and I didn't feel seriously threatened by the prospect of going to Dol Guldur, I'd question the faithfulness of the system to the source material.

I'm not surprised that a PC is failing due to the Shadow, this is in the heart of that game and of Middle Earth and I expect that in a Darkening of Mirkwood campaign, several players would have to play several characters after having some dying, retiring or failing to the Shadow.
What I'm surprised is that we can loose a character after having 5 bouts of madness in a very very short time due to that "miserable state spiral" (that we, in french TOR community, consider as a system bug).

Smog
With all due respect, this is completely wrong and does not adhere to the source material or one of Tolkien's greatest recurring themes: that Shadow is fleeting and that hope and light can be found in the darkest of places. Here is a direct excerpt that completely contradicts what you've said above:
...
Players should always be presented with the chance to regain hope. It may be less common in places of shadow, but it should always be a possibility. It is the Loremaster's job to mediate the systems and adapt as necessary in order to present the players with a challenging but fun experience. If they are perhaps too inexperienced for where they are and getting drowned in shadow, and you think it's too much, then perhaps the full moon should appear just in time and in all of his glory to the dismay of the enemies, or perhaps a cool breeze with the fresh smell of a far green country suddenly blows in from the west and revitalizes your heroes.

Carcharoth
I see what you're saying, but I do believe that point #3 is debatable. While I agree that Dol Guldur is and should be treated as a dark and miserable place, if going there is causing your party to plummet into Shadow, then I don't see why you can't invent situations that might help inspire hope, even if just for the sake of having a fun game. Why not have the players stumble upon a fragment of ruins leftover from the kingdom of Oropher? Why not have a small beam of wholesome sunlight cut through a break in the forest canopy to remind the party of the simple joys in life? If the players at least have a shot at sustaining themselves spiritually (regaining Hope), then it probably wouldn't feel so bad to lose characters to Shadow, and could make for some memorable story moments.

Thank you both Smog and Carcharoth for that remind, you are right. This is a theme point of Middle Earth that I underuse and I will correct my own game
I would suggest that in the 2nd edition, this advice is given to the Loremaster in the book. I've checked v1 rules and DOM books (at least until 2950) and i've found nothing of that inside and thus players playing strictly by the "books rules / scenario descriptions" won't use those hints of hope moments.

Now for the "spiral" issue, probably that it would have given more time to the characters but imo getting 1 more hope point wouldn't have delayed long the miserable status and bout of madness.

I had a look at both core rules book and Darkening of Mirkwood book and it never says that a session last about 4 hours. It only says that "usually, a full adventure should not take more than two or three sessions of play to complete" ==> no indication of session duration (unless I missed it in the book). And having the pool refreshed after 2 hours (a small evening game), 4 hours (a good evening / afternoon game) or 20 hours (a full week-end game) isn't the same : it's not the same game.

You are correct. There is no mention of recommended session length (that I am aware of) in the book. But in any game with 'per game' or 'per session' mechanics, you as the Loremaster/GM/Storyteller need to define roughly what that session-length is (regardless of how long you are actually sitting down at the table).

In my experience with other games with such mechanics (I am exhaustively experienced at running FFG's Star Wars system, which uses a ton of 'per game' abilities), the sweet spot is around 4 hours, which also aligns with most groups' average session. Obviously this is not the case for everyone, but in today's more mainstream roleplaying world, official D&D nights typically last around 3-4 hours, most folks' weeknight games last 3-4 hours, and even weekend games are frequently the same length. It's obviously debatable, but even most modern DM'ing theory saying that this is a nice block of time for a session since it's enough to sit down, get focused, get one core (or a couple minor) objectives knocked out, and then wrap up before folks start losing focus.

Now again, I am NOT saying this is the way everyone should play. One of my own groups plays every two weeks for 9 hours (breaking an hour for food). But that just means for games that have 'per game/session' abilities that I refresh them when we break for dinner about halfway through. In TOR, I believe Storytellers should do similar, especially if they aren't also leveraging 'Moments of Hope' in their adventures. Hope is a core mechanic of this game and theme of Tolkien, and it should be leveraged frequently in my opinion.

But how do you explain having that "refresh fellowship pool" when the session ends with characters in the darkest place of the Wild Lands (Mirkwood/Dol Guldur), with no secure shelter, with adversaries all around them ? It is a completely artificial mechanism, unrelated to the real context of the characters.

Exactly correct, it is a completely artificial mechanism -- as all 'per session' abilities without stipulation are -- so don't worry about the why of it. I know that feels wrong in a game that's almost entirely about theme (believe me, I'm not crazy about it either), but that's what happens when a game has 'per session' abilities. There's really no rhyme or reason to why or when they refresh as what constitutes a session is rarely defined. So if you're playing all-day sessions, then about halfway through when they finish a combat or encounter, refresh the Fellowship Pool and don't worry about why it happens.

If you want to justify it when it's not at a more obvious time, perhaps the pool refreshes simply due to grim determination in the face of adversity or similar. Call it a Three Hunters moment, if you like. During the Breaking of the Fellowship, morale was at just about its lowest point among the remaining members, but they tightened their belts, took solace in the companions they had left, and decided to do what needed to be done. Even though the situation was dire, I could absolutely see the Fellowship Pool refreshing upon Aragorn's decision at Nen Hithoel to hunt the Uruks to save Merry and Pippin.

I personnaly hope that this "session / fellowship pool" is removed and replaced by something less artificial in TOR 2nd edition (maybe there is already something about that in the changes that we know about 2nd ed., I didn't check).

I would actually be fine with the Fellowship Pool going away entirely (as I agree that is feels arbitrary and 'gamey', and not really inspired by what's happening in-game), and simply replacing it with a well-defined 'Moments of Hope' mechanic, or similar.

And to quickly clarify: I like the concept of a Fellowship-centered mechanic quite a bit. It's very on-theme. But the way it is currently implemented is not very satisfying, in my opinion. The Fellowship Focus mechanic feels better to me, and more thematic, but I think it needs to be expanded to somehow replace the core Fellowship mechanic entirely. I understand what the Fellowship mechanic is trying to do, but having it refresh on a per-session basis and always being the same flat amount makes it fall pretty flat in my experience, especially considering it's intended to be the primary means by which the party recovers hope.

I would suggest that in the 2nd edition, this advice is given to the Loremaster in the book. I've checked v1 rules and DOM books (at least until 2950) and i've found nothing of that inside and thus players playing strictly by the "books rules / scenario descriptions" won't use those hints of hope moments.

Now for the "spiral" issue, probably that it would have given more time to the characters but imo getting 1 more hope point wouldn't have delayed long the miserable status and bout of madness.

Considering how many of the official TOR adventures utilize these 'Moments of Hope' events, I completely agree that this should be outlined more clearly in the Core Rulebook, likely in the Loremaster's section.

edit: quote block fixes

I don't have much time right now mais one important comment (that I got 1mn ago from the Loremaster who had the "spiral of miserable state" issue : The game was played during a session that lasted no more than 4 hours and the fellowship pool was full at the start of Rhosgobel. But the travel near Tyrant's Hill and through the forest had given many difficulties (hazards).

I had a look at both core rules book and Darkening of Mirkwood book and it never says that a session last about 4 hours. It only says that "usually, a full adventure should not take more than two or three sessions of play to complete" ==> no indication of session duration (unless I missed it in the book). And having the pool refreshed after 2 hours (a small evening game), 4 hours (a good evening / afternoon game) or 20 hours (a full week-end game) isn't the same : it's not the same game.

You are correct. There is no mention of recommended session length (that I am aware of) in the book. But in any game with 'per game' or 'per session' mechanics, you as the Loremaster/GM/Storyteller need to define roughly what that session-length is (regardless of how long you are actually sitting down at the table).

In my experience with other games with such mechanics (I am exhaustively experienced at running FFG's Star Wars system, which uses a ton of 'per game' abilities), the sweet spot is around 4 hours, which also aligns with most groups' average session. Obviously this is not the case for everyone, but in today's more mainstream roleplaying world, official D&D nights typically last around 3-4 hours, most folks' weeknight games last 3-4 hours, and even weekend games are frequently the same length. It's obviously debatable, but even most modern DM'ing theory saying that this is a nice block of time for a session since it's enough to sit down, get focused, get one core (or a couple minor) objectives knocked out, and then wrap up before folks start losing focus.

Now again, I am NOT saying this is the way everyone should play. One of my own groups plays every two weeks for 9 hours (breaking an hour for food). But that just means for games that have 'per game/session' abilities that I refresh them when we break for dinner about halfway through. In TOR, I believe Storytellers should do similar, especially if they aren't also leveraging 'Moments of Hope' in their adventures. Hope is a core mechanic of this game and theme of Tolkien, and it should be leveraged frequently in my opinion.

But how do you explain having that "refresh fellowship pool" when the session ends with characters in the darkest place of the Wild Lands (Mirkwood/Dol Guldur), with no secure shelter, with adversaries all around them ? It is a completely artificial mechanism, unrelated to the real context of the characters.

Exactly correct, it is a completely artificial mechanism -- as all 'per session' abilities without stipulation are -- so don't worry about the why of it. I know that feels wrong in a game that's almost entirely about theme (believe me, I'm not crazy about it either), but that's what happens when a game has 'per session' abilities. There's really no rhyme or reason to why or when they refresh as what constitutes a session is rarely defined. So if you're playing all-day sessions, then about halfway through when they finish a combat or encounter, refresh the Fellowship Pool and don't worry about why it happens.

If you want to justify it when it's not at a more obvious time, perhaps the pool refreshes simply due to grim determination in the face of adversity or similar. Call it a Three Hunters moment, if you like. During the Breaking of the Fellowship, morale was at just about its lowest point among the remaining members, but they tightened their belts, took solace in the companions they had left, and decided to do what needed to be done. Even though the situation was dire, I could absolutely see the Fellowship Pool refreshing upon Aragorn's decision at Nen Hithoel to hunt the Uruks to save Merry and Pippin.

I personnaly hope that this "session / fellowship pool" is removed and replaced by something less artificial in TOR 2nd edition (maybe there is already something about that in the changes that we know about 2nd ed., I didn't check).

I would actually be fine with the Fellowship Pool going away entirely (as I agree that is feels arbitrary and 'gamey', and not really inspired by what's happening in-game), and simply being replacing it with a well-defined 'Moments of Hope' mechanic, or similar.

And to quickly clarify: I like the concept of a Fellowship-centered mechanic quite a bit. It's very on-theme. But the way it is currently implemented is not very satisfying, in my opinion. The Fellowship Focus mechanic feels better to me, and more thematic, but I think it needs to be expanded to somehow replace the core Fellowship mechanic entirely. I understand what the Fellowship mechanic is trying to do, but having it refresh on a per-session basis and always being the same flat amount makes it fall pretty flat in my experience, especially considering it's intended to be the primary means by which the party recovers hope.

I would suggest that in the 2nd edition, this advice is given to the Loremaster in the book. I've checked v1 rules and DOM books (at least until 2950) and i've found nothing of that inside and thus players playing strictly by the "books rules / scenario descriptions" won't use those hints of hope moments.

Now for the "spiral" issue, probably that it would have given more time to the characters but imo getting 1 more hope point wouldn't have delayed long the miserable status and bout of madness.

Considering how many of the official TOR adventures utilize these 'Moments of Hope' events, I completely agree that this should be outlined more clearly in the Core Rulebook, likely in the Loremaster's section.

This is a good post.

I understand the idea of letting the Hope shines inside of the Shadow, that must be a good house rule.

But here we're troubling with the rules as written. They only provide 2 ways for recovering Hope. The pool and the fellowship focus. Official adventures don't provide many points.

If you are strictly playing the rules as written, and not allowing other creative uses for the mechanics (which is fine if that's what your group wants), then I will simply point out a 3rd way to maintain Hope that is written in the core rulebook on page 134, in the Fellowship Focus Section:

As a Source of Inspiration
Successfully keeping their Fellowship focus safe might
inspire a character so much that it lets him recover points
of Hope:

If a player spends a Hope point to invoke an Attribute bonus
to accomplish an action that can be considered to directly
protect or favour his Fellowship focus and succeeds, he
immediately recovers the Hope point he just spent.
Frár son of Frór eased down the corridor towards the
cells, as quickly and quietly as Dwarven feet will allow,
and found his brother Fíli in the second cage. “The Orcs
are all eating and drinking,” he hissed, fumbling with the
crude lock, with only a dagger as a tool. “I’ll set you free.”
Frár’s player Jamie spends a point of Hope for a Body
Attribute bonus to his Craft roll to break the lock; Frár
releases his brother and the two embrace awkwardly. As
Fíli is Frár’s Fellowship focus, the Loremaster immediately
awards Frár a Hope point to replace the spent point.

This mechanic doesn't so much give a player Hope points, but allows them to avoid spending them by performing actions that greatly benefit their Fellowship focus. I'm not sure how you would apply this directly to the situation that you're describing, but perhaps reminding your players of this rule would encourage them to play in a way where they choose actions that not only help them accomplish their story goals, but benefit their Focus, allowing them to build a stronger bond, not to mention hold on to their precious Hope points.

If you are strictly playing the rules as written, and not allowing other creative uses for the mechanics (which is fine if that's what your group wants), then I will simply point out a 3rd way to maintain Hope that is written in the core rulebook on page 134, in the Fellowship Focus Section:

As a Source of Inspiration
Successfully keeping their Fellowship focus safe might
inspire a character so much that it lets him recover points
of Hope:

If a player spends a Hope point to invoke an Attribute bonus
to accomplish an action that can be considered to directly
protect or favour his Fellowship focus and succeeds, he
immediately recovers the Hope point he just spent.
Frár son of Frór eased down the corridor towards the
cells, as quickly and quietly as Dwarven feet will allow,
and found his brother Fíli in the second cage. “The Orcs
are all eating and drinking,” he hissed, fumbling with the
crude lock, with only a dagger as a tool. “I’ll set you free.”
Frár’s player Jamie spends a point of Hope for a Body
Attribute bonus to his Craft roll to break the lock; Frár
releases his brother and the two embrace awkwardly. As
Fíli is Frár’s Fellowship focus, the Loremaster immediately
awards Frár a Hope point to replace the spent point.

This mechanic doesn't so much give a player Hope points, but allows them to avoid spending them by performing actions that greatly benefit their Fellowship focus. I'm not sure how you would apply this directly to the situation that you're describing, but perhaps reminding your players of this rule would encourage them to play in a way where they choose actions that not only help them accomplish their story goals, but benefit their Focus, allowing them to build a stronger bond, not to mention hold on to their precious Hope points.

I wonder if the general idea of fellowship focus could be expanded upon, to find other ways that certain types of actions...the type we want to encourage players to take, from a roleplaying perspective...could similarly refund Hope.

I wonder if the general idea of fellowship focus could be expanded upon, to find other ways that certain types of actions...the type we want to encourage players to take, from a roleplaying perspective...could similarly refund Hope.

I absolutely agree. I would be very interested in something similar to the Misdeeds table but for Hope gain as opposed to Shadow gain. It's not exactly the same as the Fellowship Focus, but I believe this is kind of what you're saying here, and probably the easiest to clearly define and turn into a mechanic.

It could even potentially be tied to a hero's calling, and thus be slightly different for each hero. Afterall, a Slayer probably gains hope and motivation from something different than a Scholar would. The more I think about it, the more I really like this idea.

If you are strictly playing the rules as written, and not allowing other creative uses for the mechanics (which is fine if that's what your group wants), then I will simply point out a 3rd way to maintain Hope that is written in the core rulebook on page 134, in the Fellowship Focus Section:

As a Source of Inspiration
Successfully keeping their Fellowship focus safe might
inspire a character so much that it lets him recover points
of Hope:

If a player spends a Hope point to invoke an Attribute bonus
to accomplish an action that can be considered to directly
protect or favour his Fellowship focus and succeeds, he
immediately recovers the Hope point he just spent.
Frár son of Frór eased down the corridor towards the
cells, as quickly and quietly as Dwarven feet will allow,
and found his brother Fíli in the second cage. “The Orcs
are all eating and drinking,” he hissed, fumbling with the
crude lock, with only a dagger as a tool. “I’ll set you free.”
Frár’s player Jamie spends a point of Hope for a Body
Attribute bonus to his Craft roll to break the lock; Frár
releases his brother and the two embrace awkwardly. As
Fíli is Frár’s Fellowship focus, the Loremaster immediately
awards Frár a Hope point to replace the spent point.

This mechanic doesn't so much give a player Hope points, but allows them to avoid spending them by performing actions that greatly benefit their Fellowship focus. I'm not sure how you would apply this directly to the situation that you're describing, but perhaps reminding your players of this rule would encourage them to play in a way where they choose actions that not only help them accomplish their story goals, but benefit their Focus, allowing them to build a stronger bond, not to mention hold on to their precious Hope points.

I wonder if the general idea of fellowship focus could be expanded upon, to find other ways that certain types of actions...the type we want to encourage players to take, from a roleplaying perspective...could similarly refund Hope.

I agree that the Fellowship focus is a potentially powerful, yet underutilized (at least in my group) feature. I hope that there are some changes to the rules that allow players to leverage Hope gain more effectively through the Fellowship focus...(Waits patiently for Francesco to pop in with a comment about some new rules )

I would be very interested in something similar to the Misdeeds table but for Hope gain as opposed to Shadow gain. It's not exactly the same as the Fellowship Focus, but I believe this is kind of what you're saying here, and probably the easiest to clearly define and turn into a mechanic.

It could even potentially be tied to a hero's calling, and thus be slightly different for each hero. Afterall, a Slayer probably gains hope and motivation from something different than a Scholar would. The more I think about it, the more I really like this idea.

This is a very good idea. It makes me think of the old game Vampire, The Masquerade, where your character had a Virtue and a Vice (if I remember correctly). Roleplaying them allowed you to recover Willpower or the like.
In TOR, roleplaying your Calling's Distinctive Trait and Shadow Weakness could help in some way recover Hope.

Alternately/additionally, and along the lines of what Smog was suggesting about the inverse of a Misdeeds table, selfless actions that come at an immediate cost to the character (where Misdeeds might be described as selfish actions that are to the benefit of the character) could be rewarded with Hope.