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aramis
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Re: Vehicles, kit , etc

Sun 16 Aug 2020, 03:39

Definitely hoping they have the full range of US equipment - which would be the M8 AGS, the Bradley APC, the M109 SPG and the M88A2 Engineering vehicle just to name a few. And also some of the very interesting Swedish Military vehicles as well.
Add the M-973 SUSV... twin cab tracklayer capable of "greater than 35 MPH"... also known as the Volvo Bandvagn 206D.
While it's the 6th ID, not the 5th ID(M), that had most of them in 2000, they were deployed to multiple theaters. They swim, they drive with standard controls, they steer by bending between the cabs. And they're comfy. Smooth ride, full air conditioning.
(I spent the 70's to 00's living in Anchorage or Eagle River; the 6th ID was HQ'd at Fort Richardson, which is just outside the city limits of Anchorage, and adjacent to Eagle River, but still all are in the Anchorage Borough. I've had many acquaintances in the 6th ID.)

Always fun to be driving down the highway and be right alongside them on the road. They can do highway speeds - I've seen them doing in excess of 55 MPH (88 kph).

Plus, as a bonus, it's served in the Swedish, Finnish, German, and Norwegian militaries, as well.
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Oddball_E8
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Re: Vehicles, kit , etc

Sun 16 Aug 2020, 13:16

Did anyone else get disappointed when the "real" M1A2 Abrams _didn't_ get a self loading gun, or the G-11 (bullpup) not getting adopted by NATO? Also later on finding myself as gunner of a M2A1 BFV, I expected a few more advancements. I have to find my old books.
For certain!

The G11 is a prime example of a piece of hardware that never saw light of day in service IRL, but by necessity must be a standard item in the game.

By 1991, the rifle had gone through all the necessary technical and troop tests with Bundeswehr, and was ready for being issued Permit for Fielding. Only the political decision to put it into service remained. And then the Soviet Union collapsed ... and bye-bye G11. The official decision to postpone the programme (indefinitely) was made in the Bundestag in 1992.

The G11 was set to be supported by a whole ecosystem of firearms, with an LMG using the same cartridge, and a sidearm using a short version of it. The question however whether the 4.73x33 ammunition could ever have been adopted as a NATO standard cartridge is somewhat diffuse. The G11 (under the moniker "HK-ACR") had - in spite of very successful trials at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds - been, along with all the other contenders, rejected as a replacement for the US M16A2 with the closing of the Advanced Combat Rifle programme (on slightly diffuse grounds ... ostensibly because "hey, none of the contenders is really better than the M16 anyway", but "hey, the Iron Curtain just fell, so why bother?" also seems to have been a factor) in 1990, and the Bundestag officially stated that "adoption as NATO standard is unlikely" in 1993, but I hear some conflicting accounts.
In the end, the conclusion that had the USSR and the Warsaw Pact not collapsed, history would most likely have played out very differently for the G11, is inevitable.


(Just for the record - what makes the G11 unique is not its bullpup configuration - both the British and the French have had bullpup assault rifles in service since the '70's and '80's, with the SA80/L85 and FAMAS ... apart from the dozens of countries that have adopted the FN P90 into various services since the '90's, etc..
What does make the G11 unique is (a) the fact that it uses caseless ammunition, and (b) it's "designed dispersion" ultra-rapid three-round burst, that considerably boosts a rifleman's hit probability.)

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EDIT:
====

Just came to think of something, re. the above:
Looking at it neutrally, it is indeed all but a foregone conclusion that the G11 and its 4.73mm ecosystem "siblings" must be a major piece of hardware in the game's setting, as a standard firearm in, most certainly, the West German armed forces; possibly one or two other countries; quite likely even being introduced into the US, if we assume — as I believe we must — the ACR programme had been followed through as it was meant to.
However, if all the military advisors commissioned into this project are American, this particular perspective may struggle to come into the forefront. For America to adopt any piece of foreign hardware as a major ingredient in its arsenal is a major mental step (remember all the hand wringing and soul searching that went into accepting the M92 as a replacement for the old Colt?), and I feel that mentality shines through also in fiction.


It's highly doubtful that anyone other than the Germans would adopt the G11 or its "siblings", due to the very high costs involved.

Remember, you're not just talking about the cost of the weapon itself, you're talking about the cost of changing production, supply and logistics as well.

Hell, I doubt even the Germans would have a complete replacement by the time the war broke out in-game. But some special forces units definitely would have had them at the outbreak of the war. How common they are in the actual setting of the game, however, is debatable. It's not exactly easy to produce the caseless ammo... much easier to re-use old spent cartriges and just produce new ammo that way for conventional firearms.

Here's Forgotten Weapons' video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGKcvM2Hh4g

There's also the issue of Germany having a completely different ammunition than the rest of NATO... so... one could postulate that the G36 would still have been made as a supplement for the military and the G11 serving as a speciality weapon for special forces.
 
StainlessSteelCynic
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Re: Vehicles, kit , etc

Mon 17 Aug 2020, 11:42

Despite common belief, the monetary cost is not the deciding factor when it comes to adopting a new item of equipment.
What advantages it has over the currently used item and how it fits with national interests & military doctrine have far more impact on the purchase of new items of equipment.
Otherwise, we'd all still be using bolt-action rifles.
Why are we not using bolt-action rifles despite the high cost at the time to replace them and replace all the equipment used to make them and their ammunition?
Because self-loading rifles offered more benefits than manually loading rifles.
The monetary cost was not as important as the potential advantages gained by shifting to an entirely new type of rifle despite the need to build new machinery to make those new riles, despite the need to manufacture new ammunition, despite the cost to train the military in the new rifle etc. etc.

In regards to the G11, HK were advertising the system to other nations and showcased it in one of the Scandinavian countries at the time, if my memory serves me well, I think that one of the members here actually witnessed it at one of the arms shows in Scandinavia and spoke to the H&K reps about it (if not one of the members here then it was on another Twilight: 2000 forum).
Plus there was the possibility that the US military might adopt a version of it for their ACR.
Other nations purchasing the G11 would have lead to mass production which would have lowered the cost overall.

In regard to the G36, it's unlikely it would have been developed given the history of the Twilight War. The fallback rifle in case the G11 was not accepted was the G41 and even when the G11 was accepted for service, the G41 was also offered as the rifle for personnel not needing the G11 i.e. rear area personnel.
Due to the end of the Cold War, West German national interests and military doctrine changed. They no longer needed the benefits the G11 could have given their troops and the money they would have spent on bulk purchase of the G11 and all its extras was instead used to integrate East Germany with West German.
They stuck with the G3 and waited some time before deciding to switch to a 5.56mm rifle which as we know was an entirely new development from HK, the G36.
 
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Vader
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Re: Vehicles, kit , etc

Mon 17 Aug 2020, 14:01

Add the M-973 SUSV... twin cab tracklayer capable of "greater than 35 MPH"... also known as the Volvo Bandvagn 206D.

Plus, as a bonus, it's served in the Swedish, Finnish, German, and Norwegian militaries, as well.
.
Just for the record — that is actually "Hägglunds [now BAE] Bandvagn 206".
There's nothing Volvo about it — Hägglunds won the contract in stiff competition against Volvo, who'd made its predecessor, Bv 202. Even the engine came from Ford; the "D" version's [a.k.a. Bv 208] Diesel engine came from Mercedes-Benz.

The design was originally commissioned by the Swedish Army, where almost half of all the units ever produced served, but it's actually served in several other militaries beyond those mentioned ... 17 in all, I think; including the British, French, and Canadian armed forces.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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Vader
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Re: Vehicles, kit , etc

Mon 17 Aug 2020, 14:26

Despite common belief, the monetary cost is not the deciding factor when it comes to adopting a new item of equipment.
What advantages it has over the currently used item and how it fits with national interests & military doctrine have far more impact on the purchase of new items of equipment.
Otherwise, we'd all still be using bolt-action rifles.
Why are we not using bolt-action rifles despite the high cost at the time to replace them and replace all the equipment used to make them and their ammunition?
Because self-loading rifles offered more benefits than manually loading rifles.
The monetary cost was not as important as the potential advantages gained by shifting to an entirely new type of rifle despite the need to build new machinery to make those new riles, despite the need to manufacture new ammunition, despite the cost to train the military in the new rifle etc. etc.

In regards to the G11, HK were advertising the system to other nations and showcased it in one of the Scandinavian countries at the time, if my memory serves me well, I think that one of the members here actually witnessed it at one of the arms shows in Scandinavia and spoke to the H&K reps about it (if not one of the members here then it was on another Twilight: 2000 forum).
Plus there was the possibility that the US military might adopt a version of it for their ACR.
Other nations purchasing the G11 would have lead to mass production which would have lowered the cost overall.

In regard to the G36, it's unlikely it would have been developed given the history of the Twilight War. The fallback rifle in case the G11 was not accepted was the G41 and even when the G11 was accepted for service, the G41 was also offered as the rifle for personnel not needing the G11 i.e. rear area personnel.
Due to the end of the Cold War, West German national interests and military doctrine changed. They no longer needed the benefits the G11 could have given their troops and the money they would have spent on bulk purchase of the G11 and all its extras was instead used to integrate East Germany with West German.
They stuck with the G3 and waited some time before deciding to switch to a 5.56mm rifle which as we know was an entirely new development from HK, the G36.
.
That pretty much says it all. If costs were the main deciding factor, then the Dreyse mechanism would have conquered the world, and we'd still be using it.

In fact, around 1991, it was a very close call that the 4.73mm family became the new NATO standard. Had not the ACR programme been scrapped prematurely (the end of the Cold War seeming to be the main real reason), the "HK-ACR" (i.e. the G11) stood a very good chance of emerging as a clear winner, thus subsequently to be adopted as the replacement for the M16A2. Had this happened, other countries would perforce have followed suit.
The main reason for why the Bundestag in 1992 decides to mothball the entire G11 programme was specifically because the 4.73mm family "no longer is probable to be adopted as NATO standard".

But assume instead the following scenario: with Superpower tensions rising instead of declining in Europe around 1990-91, ACR had been allowed to continue, concluding in 1991 with the HK-ACR being announced as winner. Then Germany would have followed through with its acquisition of the system, and the US would have started its own acquisitions programme.
The Germans might not have replaced the G3 to 100% by the war breaking out 1995, but probably — bearing in mind that said increased tensions likely would accelerate many military acquisition programmes — not very far from it. The US would also have come part of the way, possibly to the point of most USAREUR units being equipped with it. Some other countries (most particularly Norway) would probably not be far behind.

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EDIT:
====

It has since become clear that break of hostilities in this scenario is in fact not 1995 as I had assumed, but 1997.
That would give all the time necessary for both Germany and the US to pretty close to completely re-arm with the G11.
Last edited by Vader on Fri 21 Aug 2020, 14:58, edited 1 time in total.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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omnipus
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Re: Vehicles, kit , etc

Mon 17 Aug 2020, 22:33

I have to imagine that, adopted or not, the G11 would make an extremely poor weapon choice for the Twilight world. Unless logistics for producing the unique ammunition had ramped up truly massively before war broke out, along with huge quantities of spare parts for the weapon itself, enormous burn rates and normal failure would pretty damn quickly make the G11 a very unwise weapon for anyone interested in being self-sustaining whatsoever. I truly don't know the details on manufacturing the ammo, but I can't imagine it's anywhere near as easy as traditional cased ammo. Six months into the war I'd imagine anyone with good sense ditching their G11 for any 5.56, 7.62, or 5.45 weapon which you could be way, way more confident of being able to continue to feed.

BUT, this is kind of a cool adventure hook in itself. Find a warehouse with 100,000 rounds of 4.7mm caseless? Well that's too good a prize to pass up...
Author, Central Poland Sourcebook -- now available on DriveThruRPG
 
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Vader
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Re: Vehicles, kit , etc

Tue 18 Aug 2020, 00:37

BUT, this is kind of a cool adventure hook in itself. Find a warehouse with 100,000 rounds of 4.7mm caseless? Well that's too good a prize to pass up...
.
That's exactly what would make it the perfect weapon for the Twilight setting!

The weapon that's easiest to find, almost no-one can make reliable ammo for ... and the weapons that almost everyone can make ammo for, are the ones hardest to find. Not to mention that casings aren't as easily scavenged as they used to be... There are so many wonderful potential complications and adventure hooks built into just that one simple concept.

That it also happens to be the best match for where we historically know things were headed just before the USSR's collapse makes it of course even better.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
StainlessSteelCynic
Posts: 8
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Re: Vehicles, kit , etc

Tue 18 Aug 2020, 03:31

I have to imagine that, adopted or not, the G11 would make an extremely poor weapon choice for the Twilight world. Unless logistics for producing the unique ammunition had ramped up truly massively before war broke out, along with huge quantities of spare parts for the weapon itself, enormous burn rates and normal failure would pretty damn quickly make the G11 a very unwise weapon for anyone interested in being self-sustaining whatsoever. I truly don't know the details on manufacturing the ammo, but I can't imagine it's anywhere near as easy as traditional cased ammo. Six months into the war I'd imagine anyone with good sense ditching their G11 for any 5.56, 7.62, or 5.45 weapon which you could be way, way more confident of being able to continue to feed.

BUT, this is kind of a cool adventure hook in itself. Find a warehouse with 100,000 rounds of 4.7mm caseless? Well that's too good a prize to pass up...
The caseless ammunition is definitely the biggest issue. From what I recall, it used a denatured rocket fuel for the propellant, so that makes it a little bit harder to find the materials needed to produce more ammo :lol:
One plan was for the magazines to be pre-packed by the factory which meant you couldn't top up a magazine in the field and magazines would have to be sent back to the factory for filling (and then be sent back to the military for use - that's a lot of double handling). Again, if I recall correctly, HK had the idea that the soldier would have three magazines (that conveniently, could be carried on the rifle itself) giving them 150-rds (assuming the 50-rd magazine was standardised) for immediate use. From what I understand the West German military wasn't particularly impressed with those ideas and wanted the ability to carry extra magazines and load magazines as needed and so HK's plan was to produce packages of 10 rounds for loading into the magazines, rather than pre-pack them at the factory.

With all that in mind, it makes the G11 (and the light machine gun and pistol) exactly the sort of thing you and Vader mentioned - a great plot device. Further complications around the G11 could include other people being envious of someone who possesses the rifle and conspire to steal it to sell it to the highest bidder. Or you could have people demanding help from someone with a G11 because of the myths built up around the rifle, in their eyes, someone who owns a G11 is obviously a formidable soldier so surely that person can deal with the local brigands... and then deal with the bandits further down the road who interfere with the traders coming to the village... and then take care of the renegade soldiers living up in the hills that, while they aren't actually bothering anyone, surely are plotting to take over the village and steal all our food...
Or to really twist things about, perhaps the villagers have heard stories about how devastating and terrible the G11 is and now fear anyone who carries the rifle.
Any player character that has one starts to worry about openly displaying their G11 :twisted:
 
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Vader
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Re: Vehicles, kit , etc

Tue 18 Aug 2020, 10:31

(assuming the 50-rd magazine was standardised)
...
Further complications around the G11 could include other people being envious of someone who possesses the rifle and conspire to steal it to sell it to the highest bidder.
.
In its final design, the magazine holds 45 rounds. Which nicely adds up to 15 “shots” in burst mode.
The 10-round “top-up’s” are exactly right.


I’d have to assume that in this setting, the G11 is ubiquitous!

Imagine if not all, at least a fair portion of Bundeswehr’s G3’s and USAREUR’s AR15 variants now being G11’s instead ... only the Russian and Polish AK variants can be more common.

Having access to ammo though will be the limiting factor.

There will be people making ammo for it. The key phrase will be “reliable”. Much of the home-cooked stuff will have problems with soot and residue jamming the mechanism, cook-off, cartridges out of dimension tolerances creating misfires ... all the problems HK themselves had when developing the system.

Getting hold of factory-made ammo will definitely be the Grail Quest...
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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aramis
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Re: Vehicles, kit , etc

Tue 18 Aug 2020, 18:35

Add the M-973 SUSV... twin cab tracklayer capable of "greater than 35 MPH"... also known as the Volvo Bandvagn 206D.

Plus, as a bonus, it's served in the Swedish, Finnish, German, and Norwegian militaries, as well.
.
Just for the record — that is actually "Hägglunds [now BAE] Bandvagn 206".
There's nothing Volvo about it — Hägglunds won the contract in stiff competition against Volvo, who'd made its predecessor, Bv 202. Even the engine came from Ford; the "D" version's [a.k.a. Bv 208] Diesel engine came from Mercedes-Benz.

The design was originally commissioned by the Swedish Army, where almost half of all the units ever produced served, but it's actually served in several other militaries beyond those mentioned ... 17 in all, I think; including the British, French, and Canadian armed forces.
Some US Army sources claim Volvo; given the preponderance of evidence elsewhere, I'll stand corrected.
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