Forum

Thank you for the discussion, it's been really helpful!

With respect to Elves (at least, Lindon and Rivendell, I don't have the other books so I don't know if they have more cultures), how significant is their weakness (only being able to heal 1 shadow point per Fellowship Phase/only being able to heal Shadow Points during Yule)?

Is there a way to raise your base ability scores (ie Heart, Wits and Strength) after character creation? I saw ways to increase skills, combat proficiencies, Wisdom and Valour, but if I start with, say, a low Heart score...can I raise that in any way, or do I just have to accept its low and compensate through levelling up Heart skills and valour?

1) Elven cultural drawback - it is a drawback, but not insurmountable and balanced out by strong virtues. Some elven players I loremaster for have taken Elbereth GIlthoniel early and used it to be Inspired on Shadow tests for a +2d bonus, boosting their chance of passing (and rolling more 6s!), reducing shadow gains. I've done this too. Plus elf players can take a shadow scar, then the first time they meet Arwen it converts over to a point of shadow instead.

The elven drawback is balanced out by their excellent cultural blessing (even stronger in the high elf case with +1 to an attribute), and strong cultural virtues. I've still found playing an elf fun, and the same for my elf players.

Wood elves have a weaker cultural blessing (only works in forests and at night) but no cultural drawback, fitting their different nature and character. Appreciate this culture is only available to kickstarter backers so far, but I think it is very safe to assume it will be more widely available later.

2) Raising attributes: so far, there is no way to raise attributes after character creation. However, you can get lots of the effects of a high attribute by choosing the appropriate virtue. For example, if your Heart TN is high, you can take Prowess (Heart) at character creation (or later!) to lower your Heart TN by 1. This isn't quite as good as a higher attribute - you won't have a higher Heart for the purposes of Hope recovery in the fellowship phase, for example. Note you can select Prowess multiple times, even for the same attribute! Admittedly there are diminishing returns mathematically, and a more versatile character is generally more interesting and powerful.

Taking particular Virtues can also compensate for a lower Heart too, for example Against the Unseen (favoured Dread tests, 1d bonus on Dread tests related to spirits, which is a lot of dread tests as Werewolves are spirits too, it is a pretty broad category) for Elves and Strength of Will for Rangers (1d on Dread tests). As noted above, Elbereth GIlthoniel works too, by providing a route to being inspired on Shadow tests (as Distinctive Features can only make Skill tests inspired).

Thank you for the discussion, it's been really helpful!

With respect to Elves (at least, Lindon and Rivendell, I don't have the other books so I don't know if they have more cultures), how significant is their weakness (only being able to heal 1 shadow point per Fellowship Phase/only being able to heal Shadow Points during Yule)?

Is there a way to raise your base ability scores (ie Heart, Wits and Strength) after character creation? I saw ways to increase skills, combat proficiencies, Wisdom and Valour, but if I start with, say, a low Heart score...can I raise that in any way, or do I just have to accept its low and compensate through levelling up Heart skills and valour?

1) Elven cultural drawback - it is a drawback, but not insurmountable and balanced out by strong virtues. Some elven players I loremaster for have taken Elbereth GIlthoniel early and used it to be Inspired on Shadow tests for a +2d bonus, boosting their chance of passing (and rolling more 6s!), reducing shadow gains. I've done this too. Plus elf players can take a shadow scar, then the first time they meet Arwen it converts over to a point of shadow instead.

The elven drawback is balanced out by their excellent cultural blessing (even stronger in the high elf case with +1 to an attribute), and strong cultural virtues. I've still found playing an elf fun, and the same for my elf players.

Wood elves have a weaker cultural blessing (only works in forests and at night) but no cultural drawback, fitting their different nature and character. Appreciate this culture is only available to kickstarter backers so far, but I think it is very safe to assume it will be more widely available later.

2) Raising attributes: so far, there is no way to raise attributes after character creation. However, you can get lots of the effects of a high attribute by choosing the appropriate virtue. For example, if your Heart TN is high, you can take Prowess (Heart) at character creation (or later!) to lower your Heart TN by 1. This isn't quite as good as a higher attribute - you won't have a higher Heart for the purposes of Hope recovery in the fellowship phase, for example. Note you can select Prowess multiple times, even for the same attribute! Admittedly there are diminishing returns mathematically, and a more versatile character is generally more interesting and powerful.

Taking particular Virtues can also compensate for a lower Heart too, for example Against the Unseen (favoured Dread tests, 1d bonus on Dread tests related to spirits, which is a lot of dread tests as Werewolves are spirits too, it is a pretty broad category) for Elves and Strength of Will for Rangers (1d on Dread tests). As noted above, Elbereth GIlthoniel works too, by providing a route to being inspired on Shadow tests (as Distinctive Features can only make Skill tests inspired).

Makes sense.

I'm looking at Shadow and thinking that it's a very harsh mechanic. I know it's theory crafting at the moment for me, but it seems very difficult to avoid. I looked at the CRB adventure Star of the Mist, and counted the number of Shadow Points that the High Elf would incur. I judged that he would likely incur 7 Shadow Points during the adventure (before taking tests) over 3 events. He has a Wits of 7, so a TN of 13. Since he has Wisdom 1, he gets to roll 1 feat die and 1 success die (if I understand correctly), which gives him slightly less than 30% chance of success. Let's say he's likely to succeed in one roll, and so he's unlikely to score a Tengwar (which is one in six), so he's likely to score 6 Shadow Points in one adventure (actually, probably 7 because his heart score is lower than his Wits, but for simplicity's sake). Even using 1 Hope for 1d per roll, it evens out to around 50% (58%, but with the Heart score, it probably drops to around there), so 5 Shadow Points (It would save either 1 or 2 points, but there's also Tengwars, so I've said 2).

So that means 4-⁶ Shadow Points per Adventure, 3 Adventures before he can use Yule to recover, so topping out at 12-18 Shadow Points means that he's easily topping his 11 Hope. He's having to take either Shadow Scars (which makes things even worse in the future or costs him his Yule Activity which is also precious) or a Bout of Madness which brings up flaws and can't be done more than 4 times anyhow.

Of course, he could spend Hope for more dice, but then that's burning through 6 Hope per session just on Shadow Tests, and doesn't leave much for normal usages or even as a buffer against being Miserable and he's not even going to break even on Hope regeneration.

Either I've misunderstood something (entirely possible), that adventure is particularly prone to Shadow Points, or this seems very harsh to me. I know other characters can use Fellowship Score to get rid of Shadow Points, but even then, that's not very big - an average of slightly more than 1 SP per Adventure, and they might be able to remove 1 or 2 through the automatic process in the FP (the 3rd SP seems like it would necessarily be cancelled by the increase in SPs that such an adventure would incur).

Have I missed something? Or is this just theorycrafting and it's not as problematic as my maths imply?

High Elves have to manage Shadow very, very carefully. There are good reasons why Elrond remains in Rivendell and sends forth Heroes to accomplish his goals. So be aware that you're comparing 'worst-case' scenarios here. Most Heroes might struggle with the Star of the Mist, but none more than a High Elf.

Also, adventures are dangerous, uncomfortable things. Being stared at in The Prancing Pony, checking on the Dúnedain building a new refuge on Girdley Island, hunting wolves near Fornost Erain, or even scouting to make sure the dead rest peacefully in their Barrows west of Bree are safer than adventuring in a fallen hall where shadows lie.

Ah ok, so it just happens to be an adventure that is particularly high in terms of Shadow Points. Thank you.

I did a one player run through of Star in the Mist last night, just to try out the mechanics etc. It was good, although I'm sure it will be even more fun when doing it properly with friends.

I did notice something though. In the CRB (p16, Using your own dice), when talking about the feat dice, it says that you replace the '11' with the Eye of Sauron. On the dice they sent me, they still have the '11' and instead replaced the '1' with the Eye of Sauron. So, according to the CRB, the die should have 1-10, Eye, Gandalf. Both of mine have Eye, 2-11, Gandalf.

Is that a typo in the CRB or are the dice wrong? That does affect the mathematics of the rolls significantly (an increase/decrease, on average, of 1 per roll with numerical value). If the dice are right, does a roll of an '11' count as a Piercing Blow, or not?

I did a one player run through of Star in the Mist last night, just to try out the mechanics etc. It was good, although I'm sure it will be even more fun when doing it properly with friends.

I did notice something though. In the CRB (p16, Using your own dice), when talking about the feat dice, it says that you replace the '11' with the Eye of Sauron. On the dice they sent me, they still have the '11' and instead replaced the '1' with the Eye of Sauron. So, according to the CRB, the die should have 1-10, Eye, Gandalf. Both of mine have Eye, 2-11, Gandalf.

Is that a typo in the CRB or are the dice wrong? That does affect the mathematics of the rolls significantly (an increase/decrease, on average, of 1 per roll with numerical value). If the dice are right, does a roll of an '11' count as a Piercing Blow, or not?

The dice are wrong, you can contact Fria Ligan and ask for replacements/treat the 11 as a 1/use normal dice and follow the rulebook's instructions. The core rulebook is correct.

Ah ok, so it just happens to be an adventure that is particularly high in terms of Shadow Points. Thank you.

It is. Most of the adventures in Tales from the Lone Lands are much lower on potential Shadow.

Additionally, I tend to start PCs with lower shadow adventures, as the mechanic becomes more interesting once PCs have a little Valour and Wisdom and therefore a better chance of passing the tests, weighing whether they should spend Hope and potentially some helpful Virtues.

Yeah, I assumed it was typical, but I guess the writers wanted to showcase how the different mechanics work, which would invoke Shadow a lot to help drive in one of the more unique mechanics to the game. Just worried me a little because I like a.bit of a challenge, but doing that every session would have been a bit heavy for our tastes!

With Tales from the Lone Lands, how long, roughly, would it take to work through them?

I haven't run Tales from the Lone Lands, but eye-balling it based on what is written and my own experience running games/playing a character:

Adventure 1: 2 Sessions
Adventure 2: 3 Sessions
Adventure 3: 2 Sessions
Adventure 4: 3 Sessions
Adventure 5: 3 Sessions
Adventure 6: 3 Sessions

All based on the standard 3 hour session. Naturally things will differ across groups based on their pace of play and events in game.

It is a fine book, thoroughly recommend it.

I haven't run Tales from the Lone Lands, but eye-balling it based on what is written and my own experience running games/playing a character:

Adventure 1: 2 Sessions
Adventure 2: 3 Sessions
Adventure 3: 2 Sessions
Adventure 4: 3 Sessions
Adventure 5: 3 Sessions
Adventure 6: 3 Sessions

All based on the standard 3 hour session. Naturally things will differ across groups based on their pace of play and events in game.

It is a fine book, thoroughly recommend it.

I'll look into it, we're still working through SotM, but my wife is positive about it and seems to enjoy it.

In part of the adventure, you can harvest herbs. How do they work? I get they add 1d to Healing...but how much can you use them. The only reference I found suggested that consumables are enough for needs for an adventure (although in context, it seems to suggest they're permanent and you replenish after each adventure). Does that mean that the herbs "disappear" at the end of SotM? Or does it become a permanent thing? Or just single-use?